Dangerous Ross Rifle Bolt

Ganderite

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There was an excellent video posted here a few weeks ago that showed how easy it was to miss-assemble the Ross 1910 bolt.

I just came across a court case where Sir Ross was sued for injuries when one of the rifles he sold was fired with the bolt miss-assembled. He lost.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1921/1921canlii40/1921canlii40.pdf
 
I think I'm going to loosen the lugnuts on my truck and then sue GM when the wheel falls off and I crash!!!!

Seems like the same thing to me!!
Hardly. A better analogy would be if the lug nuts had to go in exactly the same spots they were factory installed, or the wheel would fall off. And furthermore, it didn't state so in the owner's manual.

A reasonable person, without instruction, would not be expected to automatically know this. That is the basis of the lawsuit and is legally sound. Don't forget there was no internet 100 years ago for people to investigate this stuff on their own.
 
Hardly. A better analogy would be if the lug nuts had to go on exactly in the same spots they were factory installed on, or the wheel would fall off. And furthermore, it didn't state so in the owner's manual.

A reasonable person, without instruction, would not be expected to automatically know this. That is the basis of the lawsuit and is legally sound. Don't forget there was no internet 100 years ago for people to investigate this stuff on their own.

maybe but remember the Ross was designed and built in a time when you didn't have to put "there are no user servicable parts" stickers on everything to protect from idiocy
 
maybe but remember the Ross was designed and built in a time when you didn't have to put "there are no user servicable parts" stickers on everything to protect from idiocy
Stripping your rifle to clean it is now "idiocy"? Perhaps you should read the PDF Ganderite was kind enough to post before jumping to conclusions. You may actually come across the important facts that support the Supreme Court decision, such as how the rifles were heavily oiled before sale to prevent rust and quite literally required the owners to strip them down and clean them before use.

The human race hasn't become dumber in the last 100 years, just more connected. Most social developments are based around that fact.
 
A great historical read. One often hears the internet stories without any real factual evidence. Here it is stated that the military had no problems (presumably due to training) but that commercial sales were the issue. I think the court decision was correct.
 
Stripping your rifle to clean it is now "idiocy"? Perhaps you should read the PDF Ganderite was kind enough to post before jumping to conclusions. You may actually come across the important facts that support the Supreme Court decision, such as how the rifles were heavily oiled before sale to prevent rust and quite literally required the owners to strip them down and clean them before use.

Not only that, but no instructions were provided in reassembling the bolt, such that even a "...reasonably prudent user could be deceived into believing by the appearance of the rifle into thinking that it was properly locked and ready to fire" [pg. 28]. Ross ought to have known of the risk of of incorrect bolt assembly and was therefore negligent in failing to provide adequate instruction.

Not all lawsuits are frivolous.
 
Stripping your rifle to clean it is now "idiocy"? Perhaps you should read the PDF Ganderite was kind enough to post before jumping to conclusions. You may actually come across the important facts that support the Supreme Court decision, such as how the rifles were heavily oiled before sale to prevent rust and quite literally required the owners to strip them down and clean them before use.

The human race hasn't become dumber in the last 100 years, just more connected. Most social developments are based around that fact.

its quite simple watch out the parts come out them put them back in that order. and it can be said that some of the human race has gotten dumber over the last 30 years
 
Either way you look at it he had a damn good thing going and it was ruined by the bolt issue on the commercial side and a combo of things on the military side. They are such fine hunting rifles I'm sure they would still be around had they not developed the bad name and especially the bolt issue. Other parts of the design are the making of a fantastic rifle. In my opinion a MkII Ross with the slide safety, a 22"-24" barrel, the tighter .300 bore diameter (for use with 220 grain RN 308 bullets) and the rear sight off a Garand would be the best bush rifle, period. You can cycle the bolt without losing your cheek weld, good sights, fast cycling, devastating little cartridge, phenominal sights for tight woods and super light weight, and a great safety design for carrying hon horseback in tight woods ( easy to lock and release on purpose and tough to accidentally release), it would be really hard to beat. I'd have a slug of them. Instead I'll settle for my MkII* that has all the features I listed but the back sight.
 
Not all lawsuits are frivolous.
Quite right. In fact the well-known McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit that is frequently used as an example of frivolity and the shirking of personal responsibility, was quite indeed a valid lawsuit. Some facts:

- The McDonald's restaurant in question intentionally kept its coffee hotter than food standards dictated due to occasional customer requests
- The elderly victim received extensive third degree burns on her groin and required hospitalization and skin grafts
- The elderly victim had requested only that her medical bills be paid
- McDonald's had settled dozens of similar claims in previous years and this time said NO
- It was determined that if the coffee had been kept at a temperature specified by regulations she would not have sustained such serious injury
- McDonald's was quite appropriately found guilty as a result

Look it up. Another interesting read. Sometimes things are in fact someone else's fault.
 
And nobody thought about using their Mark I* eyeballs and LOOKING to see if the damned thing was LOCKING!

It would be different were the action entirely enclosed, but it is NOT.

STILL stupidity.
 
And nobody thought about using their Mark I* eyeballs and LOOKING to see if the damned thing was LOCKING!

It would be different were the action entirely enclosed, but it is NOT.

STILL stupidity.

Smellie I've learned something in the last while about shooters. 100% of shooters know how to pull the trigger. 6% understand how a gun works. So that leaves 94% of shooters that have no business stripping or mucking with their gun.

Oh and at least 88% of shooters have a hammer and a screwdriver!!

Scary I know.
 
The human race hasn't become dumber in the last 100 years, just more connected. Most social developments are based around that fact.

Dumber may not be the right word, but there is a terrific difference in average mechanical ability and just plain old common sense, between people living in the era of the 1930s, 40s, etc, and most of the people of todays age.
If a 1929 Ford Model A car was sitting there, all set to go but required hand cranking because the electric starter wasn't working, the average driver of today could not start and drive it on the highway. I have used Ford as an example but the cars of the 1920s were all very similar.
On the post by the steering wheel were two little levers, one was a hand throttle the other controlled the spark, by advancing or retarding it. Would todays driver know where to set the spark for starting the engine?
There was no placard, or any printed instructions on the car, giving instructions on setting the spark. The Model A ford, like the Model T before it, had a nasty reputation for breaking the arm of the person cranking it, if the spark was set too far advanced.
If one went to start one of these vehicles, without retarding the spark setting from where it had been set for previous driving, the engine would fire before the piston went over top dead centre. The result was the engine would violently turn backwards, ripping the crank from the persons hand. In it's reverse action the cross handle of the crank would hit the persons arm above the wrist, sometimes resulting in breaking the arm, but if the person was lucky he would just get a very sore arm.
As I said there was no placard or instructions of any kind on the car and no manuals existed for the vehicles.
Then when driving down the road, the driver adjusted the spark control for existing conditions.
I'm going to tell a true story here, when you read it just compare the people of the time, during WW2, and today.
At the country school I went to the lady teacher lived half mile away and she owned a Model A Ford car. One morning she walked to school and in the classroom when school started, she looked at me and said, "Bruce, I want to drive to town today after school, but I couldn't get my car started. Would you take Raymond with you for cranking, and will you walk to my place and see if you can get my car started?" I was fourteen and Raymond was thirteen.
Off we went and we were back in quite a short time. She looked at me and asked if we had had any luck. "Yes," I said, we got it going and it will be OK when you want it." "Oh thank you," she said, "What was wrong with it?" "Nothing," I said, the gas was just turned off!? At this the class roared out laughing, with the poor teacher bearing the brunt of it, by forgetting to turn the gas on.
How do you think that would fit in with today. A teacher sending two of her class to start a car that had a reputation for sometimes injuring the arm of an adult cranking it?
But she had faith that I knew what to do and would set the spark so Raymond wouldn't be injured in cranking it.
At the time it was known as common sense. Now, it would be called fool hardy, stupid, dumb and probably result in the teacher being fired.
 
Stripping your rifle to clean it is now "idiocy"? Perhaps you should read the PDF Ganderite was kind enough to post before jumping to conclusions. You may actually come across the important facts that support the Supreme Court decision, such as how the rifles were heavily oiled before sale to prevent rust and quite literally required the owners to strip them down and clean them before use.

The human race hasn't become dumber in the last 100 years, just more connected. Most social developments are based around that fact.

sorry, but i'm going to side with Mr. Ross rather than the "Supreme Court" (haven't they screwed up enough things), heavily oiled or not, don't take it apart if you aren't going to pay attention on how to put it back together.
 
there was also a recent video done where a ross was intentionally misassembled and shot to destruction to disprove the myth if the deadly bolt. Even when misassembled the charger bridge and bolt lock/stop stopped the dangerous bolt blowback every time.
 
I like the Model 'A' Ford anthology, lol.
I had a 1915 Model 'T' truck that lived at my house for a while because the person who rebuilt it passed and everyone was scared of it ( hell yeah I drove it, who from this forum would pass on that chance)
And I agree with Tinman in that most folks have NO IDEA how the rifle that they are shooting actually functions. I've stood back and listened to an fellow expound about how LE's are so dangerous because the bolt would blow open on firing. Yes; I said Lee Enfields...wild, no? 'Gotta keep your thumb on that bolt handle so it doesn't fly up'
Risk taker that I am, I'll snap up those dangerous milsurps cheap. Heck I've gotten about 1/2 dozen free so far.
 
I'm one of "Those guys" that insists on taking everything apart to see what makes it tick. I bought a Mk111 that has an unpinned bolt. I read the sticky and took the bolt right down to its essentials. Even made a 1" tool out of thick phenolic sheet to hold the firing pin.

Taking it apart is easy, but the knack of getting it back together properly takes a while to achieve. Took me close to 15 minutes and there's no guarantee that the next time will be any faster. In fact, I believe that I was just lucky in the end as it took me three attempts.
 
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