LOL... so true, but then, not every thread can be serious.
Search the hunting thread for "bear defence" for a laugh.
Best semi auto rifle of ww2
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LOL... so true, but then, not every thread can be serious.
Search the hunting thread for "bear defence" for a laugh.
Gee, I didn't know the Thompson was chambered for 9mm Steyr! If I want or ever need a semi-auto pistol that WORKS, I will get out the 1911..... the 1911 STEYR. Wins, hands down, for reliability. Yes, I have the American gun also.... and a Luger has less problems. For ULTIMATE reliability, the Mark VI Webley.
In semi-auto rifles, thare are so very many complicating factors. Indeed, it might be possible to say that the BEST semi-auto rifle of World War Two was one of the many which were not even produced.
The US Army very nearly ended up with the Pederson rifle. What saved the Garand was the fact that the Garand beat the Pederson in every trial. Finally, the Garand was adopted, in .276 and tooling ws underway when MacArthur dumped the .276 cartridge. Garand very hastily re-completed work on his rifle, this time in .30-06, and it went into production.
But only the Garand and the Pederson even had a CHANCE, because they were the rifles with Official Backing. When Major Hatcher offered a fine rifle for test, he was posted to the other side of the world and told he would be allowed to work on his design in his spare time. He never even got a second test. The Johnson was another excellent design, done essentially out of one man's brains and pocket. It flew through tests which the Government rifle (the Garand) was never required even to take. Tests were purposely rigged to make the Johnson look as bad as possible: as a single example, the clock was left running when the Johnson needed a repair, stopped when the Garand needed to go to the special Springfield Armory VAN which was parked on the range. Johnson repairs were made with people crowding around, Garand repairs were made by qualified armourer, in an enclosed van, with no witnesses. And then there were the tales of the 12 Garands with the same serial number......
In Italy, serious testing of a semi-auto rifle began in 1903. In 1903 also, the Italian Cei Gas Rifle was tested at Enfield, given a recommendation, asked for modifications. The British were considering the rifle BEFORE the Great War. No second test ever was requested..... in England. In 1938, after 2 more decades of tests, Beretta came out with a selective-fire rifle which they offered for trial to their own Army. The Beretta 1938 sa/fa rifle passed an EXCELLENT test...... and then was beaten out by the oddball Revelli-system Armaguerra Modl 39. Remember, Italy had been testing semi-auto rifles now for 35 years.... and doing it seriously. The Armaguerra was ADOPTED as the Fucile Semiautomatico Modello 39 and a factory was set up at Cremona. Unfortunately, the factory was just entering production when Italy became involved in the Second World War. The Armaguerra plant was turned over to making critical spare parts for Carcanos, which already existed in their millions..... and the wonderful semi-auto rifle which Italy had just adopted...... disappeared after less than 100 were made.
So it is entirely possible that the BEST rifle of the whole War.... was never produced.
Something to think on.
In semi-auto rifles, thare are so very many complicating factors. Indeed, it might be possible to say that the BEST semi-auto rifle of World War Two was one of the many which were not even produced.
The US Army very nearly ended up with the Pederson rifle. What saved the Garand was the fact that the Garand beat the Pederson in every trial. Finally, the Garand was adopted, in .276 and tooling ws underway when MacArthur dumped the .276 cartridge. Garand very hastily re-completed work on his rifle, this time in .30-06, and it went into production.
But only the Garand and the Pederson even had a CHANCE, because they were the rifles with Official Backing. When Major Hatcher offered a fine rifle for test, he was posted to the other side of the world and told he would be allowed to work on his design in his spare time. He never even got a second test. The Johnson was another excellent design, done essentially out of one man's brains and pocket. It flew through tests which the Government rifle (the Garand) was never required even to take. Tests were purposely rigged to make the Johnson look as bad as possible: as a single example, the clock was left running when the Johnson needed a repair, stopped when the Garand needed to go to the special Springfield Armory VAN which was parked on the range. Johnson repairs were made with people crowding around, Garand repairs were made by qualified armourer, in an enclosed van, with no witnesses. And then there were the tales of the 12 Garands with the same serial number......
In Italy, serious testing of a semi-auto rifle began in 1903. In 1903 also, the Italian Cei Gas Rifle was tested at Enfield, given a recommendation, asked for modifications. The British were considering the rifle BEFORE the Great War. No second test ever was requested..... in England. In 1938, after 2 more decades of tests, Beretta came out with a selective-fire rifle which they offered for trial to their own Army. The Beretta 1938 sa/fa rifle passed an EXCELLENT test...... and then was beaten out by the oddball Revelli-system Armaguerra Modl 39. Remember, Italy had been testing semi-auto rifles now for 35 years.... and doing it seriously. The Armaguerra was ADOPTED as the Fucile Semiautomatico Modello 39 and a factory was set up at Cremona. Unfortunately, the factory was just entering production when Italy became involved in the Second World War. The Armaguerra plant was turned over to making critical spare parts for Carcanos, which already existed in their millions..... and the wonderful semi-auto rifle which Italy had just adopted...... disappeared after less than 100 were made.
So it is entirely possible that the BEST rifle of the whole War.... was never produced.
Something to think on.
Well instead of wasting a post like what you just did. Go find a more advanced mature discussion somewhere else and bore someone else. How about starting a topic on the difference of burn by just adding 1 grain of powder. Way to go Steve!
Kayser Sose
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FG 42, 2nd generation, natch. 'all you ever wanted', no guff!
M-38 Carbine I don't think it is the best but it is semi-auto and was used in combat by Polish Forces and German Army. According to Warsaw Arms Factory employees one of the engineers shoot down JU-88 with this rifle during evacuation towards Romania. Really unknown numbers were made smallest 500 biggest 25000. They were quite common find at metal scrap yards during gun amnesties in 1945-46 in Poland
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I saw a documentary a few weeks ago that brought that very point up. I believe they were only approved for use on the eastern front in small numbers. Very impressive weapon.
MauserMike
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Well there were about 1/2 a million Stg44 produced, not exactly small numbers considering how late to the party they were. I'd love to agree with Claven but have to reserve my opinion to the day I can actually fire one. Which is probably never 
It didn't really seem to matter if you were in a German uniform in 1944-45 you were trying to hold a position or you were in full retreat. Face it once the powerful west got their crap together they were unstoppable.
MauserMike
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Corrected LOL
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It does not fit Claven2's question because it is not a "rifle" but a LMG, a light tactical machine gun which also could fire as a semi.
Hi Nelson84,
The problem with these threads is that they don't often bring any real value. The idea of "best" is subjective, what is the best rifle for one person, or even one nation, will be different for another. There's no real answer to these questions, and for those who frequant any firearms forum or discussion this question has been posted to death as different members try to get the last word in.
This sort of thread also tends to turn into flame wars, trolling, and personal attacks. The quoted comments above are actually a good example of that trend developing in this thread already.
This sort of simple blanket statement with no substance also seems to be pretty common in this type of discussion.
Hopefully that helps you understand my short rant above. But it looks like we're already well on the way to another *great* thread
-Steve
Hi Nelson84,
The problem with these threads is that they don't often bring any real value. The idea of "best" is subjective, what is the best rifle for one person, or even one nation, will be different for another. There's no real answer to these questions, and for those who frequant any firearms forum or discussion this question has been posted to death as different members try to get the last word in.
This sort of thread also tends to turn into flame wars, trolling, and personal attacks. The quoted comments above are actually a good example of that trend developing in this thread already.
This sort of simple blanket statement with no substance also seems to be pretty common in this type of discussion.
Hopefully that helps you understand my short rant above. But it looks like we're already well on the way to another *great* thread
-Steve
Your being captain bring down. Lighten up a little. You should start a topic that is super awesome for the rest of us to enjoy. Show us how it's done.
When did the m-14 come out? And why did they quit using it in Vietnam? They still use it in the gulf. They should have kept it in service along side the m-16. I think with the m-14, m-16, m-60 and the grenade launcher. Would have worked well. One thing I don't understand is why the USA never made an RPG. They could have just used the same rpg and give the cong a taste of their own medicine.
I have experience with it, and it is effective on full auto - short range. A light gun with NO muzzle climb - like a garden hose. Surprisingly the metal fore end does NOT get hot. It is an excellent submachine gun with a more powerful cartridge. My favorite of all the full auto's I've used.
A great CQB SMG.
However -
In semi it is notorious for poor accuracy (my test showed same) , even at short range, thus limiting its use in battle.
I would much rather safely pick off a threat from long distance, while under cover, with a powerful single bullet than have to risk getting close and using burst fire.
My vote is the Garand (unless in a jungle - then its the 44).
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I must disagree with you, Claven2.
The MP43/STG series of rifles were the first "assault" rifle (even Herr Hitler named it the Sturmgewehr- "Storm" Rifle). As you know, it doesn't fire a "battle rifle" cartridge, but an "intermediate" cartridge. It also has a selector switch, so I can't call it a "semi-auto" rifle. It's not now, and never was, a battle rifle in the traditional sense (yes, it IS a great firearm btw).
The best semi-auto (only) rifle of WWII is the Garand, hands down. All other semi-auto battle rifles had development problems and were never issued on an army-wide basis. The Garand was issued to all US infantry troops, and even General George S. Patton described it as "the best battle implement ever devised). The Garand is heavy, yes, but it is extremely reliable and damned accurate. The M14 rifle (follow on) is basically an improved Garand, so it served for some 30 years as the primary US rifle, until the introduction of the M16 series.
The M14 was officially approved as the replacement for the Garand in 1957. Due to long production delays at Springfield Armory (then gov't owned) the 101st Airborne was the only unit fully equipped with the M14 by the end of 1961.
They stopped using it in Vietnam because the M14 is all but uncontrollable on full auto, just like the FN series of rifles (unless you're prone with or without bipod). It also has a wood stock, which in the humidity of Vietnam would swell, affecting the zero and making the rifle difficult to field-strip for cleaning as the trigger mechanism was VERY hard to remove (the interesting thing is that the M1 likely had these issues, being a wood-stocked rifle but you seldom hear about this, even in the jungle combat of WWII). The M14 and it's ammo are much heavier than the M16 (plus the ammo costs more and so did the rifle), and a soldier of the time, armed with an M16, could carry the M16 and 440 rounds of ammo for the same weight as the M14 (9 lbs give or take).
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