T97 Range Report Thread

[pavmentsurfer]

T97 VS Tavor thread... I own both and have pics of both.

There are bound to be many people considering this question. Big price difference but what are the REAL life differences? Is it worth spending or saving $2000? Im no expert, but I can compare them side by side so lets see what we see.

Ive got about 750 rounds through my Tavor now. I removed the additional trigger return spring to lighten up the trigger pull and installed a Vortex Viper PST 1-4X24 in an RRA mount and I love it. Only other upgrade/additions are a Streamlight TLR-1 and modified the originally non functional pressure switch to be functional with a pressure switch underneath and a Battlecomp 1.5. The gun is a bit heavy but doesnt feel it when its shouldered. Its well balanced. Trigger is heavy but breaks crisp and every functional element of the gun works flawlessly EXCEPT for the lack of an actual bolt hold open lever. It has a bolt hold open and bolt release... but to lock the bolt open manually is just a silly process. Its the ONLY thing I think IWI missed on this gun.





The T97 arrived today. I started by stripping the gun completely and spraying every part down with brakclean, then a liberal soaking with G96 gun treatment. Then I wiped off the excess and re-assembled it. First "pre-firing" impressions are excellent. The gun is solid, everything fits great and disassembles and assembles extremely easily. Im amazed at how light and smooth it cocks... its just buttery. Trigger pull is VERY light but is NOT crisp. There is no indication its going to break... its just light, then breaks and its hard to know when its going to happen.
The mag release is ridiculous. Its on the wrong side for starters. You have to flex your hand around and operate it with your finger. Which is awkward. Its definitely something you can learn, but its not intuitive.
The magwel isnt tapered well so inserting a mag quickly without looking is not easy... at least not as easy as you may be used to with other AR magwells. However, the mags seem to slide in well and do lock in tight. Gen 3 Pmags are a definite NO GO at all... they dont even come close to fitting into the magwell... at all. So dont bother. LAR mags fit great.
The safety is just stupid. Its way at the back of the gun and is a very thin dial that has to be rotated 180 degrees. Its hard to grip and hard to operate without moving the gun off your shoulder. Definitely a HUGE drawback for any kind of competition. Hopefully someone will come up with an aftermarket upgrade for this part that AT LEAST makes it easier to grip.
I find holding the gun to be quite comfortable. Your hand positions are very intuitive and comfortable. If your going to use the iron sights youll find the cheek weld to be decent. If you plan to use an optic youll find its very high (no surprise). Ive added the CanAm optics rail, which mounts up VERY easily, and a Bushnell First Strike micro reflex sight. Its a nice little optic that costs less than $100 (refurbished). It sits pretty low on the rail but is still not low enough to make up for the VERY high handle and rail.
My final comment is the lack of a bolt release. Seems like something that could easily have been included. Releasing the bolt with the charge handle isnt a huge deal but because its hidden under the handle you HAVE to hit it with your hand inside the handle. You cant just hit it like with an SKS or VZ-58 or something like that. Small issue and, like the mag release, its something im sure can be adapted to completely.

I havent had a chance to shoot the gun yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Overall im VERY happy with this gun so far. You have to keep reminding yourself its 1/3 the price of the Tavor. Is it worth saving the money VS the Tavor? Ill know more tomorrow.







So, between the 2 guns my first impressions are these.

The Tavor feels better built, but not by a HUGE margin. Ergonomically the Tavor is definitely better. It has more useable functions (bolt release, non reciprocating charge handle, useable safety, ergonomic mag release, proper optics mounting rail) but it doesnt necessarily FIT better on your shoulder. Once the gun is charged and the safety is off the T97 may not be so hard to run.

Build quality and internal fitment of parts seem to be quite equal. Everything just fits on both guns. The T97 IS easier to disassemble. It requires NO tools to completely strip down to the barreled action. The Tavor needs a few screwdrivers and getting the barrel off needs a special wrench. I would say the T97 actually has a tighter feel when charging. The Tavor feels a bit disconnected. Perhaps thats due to the non reciprocating charge handle, not sure. But the T97 charges really positively.

The Tavor is slightly heavier the way I have it setup. The optic is definitely heavier than the one on the T97 and im sure thats part of it. Its not an issue, but its interesting to note. Both are almost exactly the same size. I was expecting the T97 to be longer... but its not.

Here are 2 pictures comparing the two guns. Tomorrow ill shoot both back to back and post up my impressions after firing them.

 

[C77]

Some members PM's me and asked me to start a range report thread so the range reports wouldn't get lost in the noise.

I've copied Pavementsurfer's original post here to start.

 

[TRaTSeRiF]

I sighted in my scope at 50yds and it's dead on. CanAm rail, low rings. About 3" low at 20, about 5" high at 100yds. If anyone lets theirs stretch its legs a little longer I'd be curious to read where the trajectory is at its highest and where is the 2nd zero when sighted in for 50. Max I got available is 100.

 

[Epoxy7]

T97 review for those not wanting to go through 30+ pages.

Now that I have the T97 in hand and have had a chance to give it a quick look:

Specs:

T97 semi auto: Non restricted Bullpup 5.56mm.

Barrel: 18.5" Chrome lined 1:7 twist hammer forged barrel (specs obtained from reading everything available on the sponsor's threads).
Reciprocating charging handle with built in carry handle
Short stroke piston, rotating bolt (AK inspired), striker fired.
3 position adjustable gas block (Off, 1, 2)
A2 style Flash hider is pinned on.
Uses STANAG AR15 mags.

Unpacking:

The cocaine packets smuggled in mine were a bit odd (Yes I know it's desiccant anti moisture packages) . One was in the action and it took a few minutes to clean the crud out as I naturally racked the action not realizing it was there. So take yours apart before racking the action!!!

Magazines:

The T97 uses STANAG mags (AR15). There have been various reports of magpul Gen3 not dropping free or fitting properly. Your milleage may vary with certain mags. I can say that D&H work well along with my LAR 10 round pistol mag.

The mag that comes with the rifle isn't as bad as I was expecting. Don't get me wrong the black coating on it looks to be crap but... the magpul infringement anti tilt follower wasn't bad and the actual quality of the mag was ok. Although the floor plate seems to bend in at the edge if you push on it. I'm not sure what the deal is with that. Also it has an ugly double rivet system. One in the front and one in the rear. I'm not sure if it's pinned to 5 or 5.5 yet . The mag has the last four of the serial number for the rifle stamped on it. So don't lose it!!! Hmmm you know what now that I think about it, the mag is crap. Keep it though as it has a matching serial number to your rifle.

The trigger:

A traditional Achilles heel of the bullpup rifle. The trigger is striker fired on the T97. The trigger is a bit mushy and then let's go with a good start much like the Tavor and RFB. The trigger is light and pretty decent though. Lighter than the Tavor by a lot but not as crisp as the tavor or the RFB. RFB still has the better trigger so far. The takeup will be very familiar to anyone that owns a CZ858 or VZ58. It's striker fired.

Another point on the trigger. When shooting bullpups on the bench many state it's harder to shoot them. It is, but the trigger release plays a big part in that. Dry firing is a time honoured training tradition. If you dry fire this rifle or the Tavor from a bench like position then you should notice something. On release the rifle will move off target. The release is violent enough that it will move your rifle. When held off hand there is sufficient support that this doesn't happen. But when placed on a front bag it can be an issue. There are ways to mitigate this. Don't think I'm right? Scope your Tavor or T97 put the front in a bag and dry fire. Slowly squeeze while doing your breathing. You'll see your scope go off slightly when the trigger releases. This is one of the reasons why people say the Tavor accuracy is crap. It's not but you have to understand what's going on when you shoot it. Same goes for the T97 although it's not as bad.

Carry handle, optics and propriety rail.

The iron sights are inside the carry handle. It's a front post and rear aperature style with 4 options. The markings are a bit confusing. 1 seems to be for target shooting ie 100 metres while the rest go out. Yet you will want to use the #5 for in close the aperature is bigger. Someone posted that this has to do with the amount of light at long distance. So keep this in mind. My thoughts so far are that the rear sight sucks. The only good thing about it is you naturally have to go to the front sight. I should however reserve judgement until I shoot it but, it's mediocre from what I can see and that's being generous. I like the rotating part much like other sights for the AR and the CX4 storm etc. But.... we'll see.

There is a propriety rail in the carry handle already. I've seen a scope on a posting here that has a quick release system for this rail. As it sits down into the carry handle it provides an acceptable height for optics unlike the add on stuff which sits on top. We need to get access to scopes etc that can use that rail. Or at least some sort of adapter for it. The add on rails seem to put the optics too high giving a chin weld or requiring an aftermarket chin rest.

The carry handle does limit optics. I think it's safe to say most of us would rather have a flat rail with the charging handle going out the side. Even a G36 style version would make life a lot easier for the North American market.

Ergonomics:

We definitely need a decent ambi mag release. The current one works but it's awkward and slow. Not intuitive at all. In order to use the mag release you need to wrap your weak side hand around the front of the mag and reach with your index finger to trigger the release. The only good thing is for tactical reloads you maintain control of the mag which does drop free with the right mags. The negative is you can't do speed reloads easily with the mag dropping to the ground.

The T97 doesn't have a bolt release. It's old school simplicity. Like the AK, CZ and mini14 you have to use the charging handle. There is a last shot hold open. Note: Last shot hold open only works when the safety is in the fire position. So if precharging then safety off, empty mag in and rack the action. Then safety on and load full mag. Another ergo feature that's a bit odd.

More on the safety. The safety location and style is ridiculous. It's a radial dial that requires a large turn and it's right at the back left of the stock. The only positive of the safety is like the Tavor, Swiss Arms, CZ858 etc you can turn on the safety without having to charge the firearm. Still WTF were they thinking?

The reciprocating charging handle (Very FAMAS looking) is ambi. I recommend using two fingers when using it. The beginning of the charging handle travel is light. You can squish two finges in there easily with a bit of practice. This makes charging the rifle a lot easier. Index finger leading and the finger behind it. Keep your fingers flat as you pull back. Palm should be facing down. Seems to work well, although others may have better methods.

Internals/operating system:

I'm going to call the T97 AK inspired. I've already gone through lots of flak on this one. Short stroke pistion, striker fired. But... The bolt and Bolt carrier group etc appear to have an AK lineage. Much like the Swiss Arms. Regardless the systems put together on this rifle are all tried and true. There is nothing new here. The recoil mechanism has been changed along with the charging handle location/system. But otherwise all very well tested designs. I'll post some BCG pictures here and let you guys/gals decide for yourselves.

Picture Courtesy of Fireball. Top CZ858/VZ58, middle Type 97, bottom Valmet (AK action in 308, the only non prohibited AK action in Canada).

Note that the CZ uses a tilting block breech with no rotating bolt. The Bolt on the type97 and Valmet are pretty much identical. The BCG is changed up but you can still see where the inspiration came from.

A Tavor for comparison. The Tavor has an AR style rotating bolt. Reminds me a bit of the G36.

Adjustable gas block and flash hider:

The T97 has a 3 position adjustable gas block. 0 is bolt action/grenade launcher. 1 and 2 are regular and fouled. I assume 1 is regular but will have to confirm with trial and error. Also I believe but can't confirm that the bottom of the switch is what the numbers are referring to. One note is that the funny claws are designed for a 5.56 or 223 cartridge to go in place. The claws fit along the rim.

Also note the flash hider. It appears to be typical A2. But..... the bottom is open. In a lot of flash hiders these days you see the bottom closed to act as a bit of a muzzle brake to assist with muzzle rise. Not so with the T97. The Tavor and my AR15 rifles have the bottom closed.


Handling:

It's a bullpup!! It points and balances great. Weight is in the back which makes it feel a lot lighter than it is once shouldered. It shoulders nicely and points well. It's fairly slender, and the back of the stock reminds me sort of the HK AR stock. Decent rubber on the back, nice straight line for recoil. It's not as bulky as the Tavor or RFB.

Weak side shooting. I hear this all the time. You can't change shoulders etc. Or from left hand shooters for right hand firearms. The T97 ejects to the right. There is a simple solution if you're right and transitioning to the left. Tilt the rifle slightly so the ejection port points down. Use the left side of the stock for your cheek weld. This will keep brass out of your teeth. With the T97 the stock has a CTR like feel compared to an A frame stock (B5, Sopmod etc). As compared to the more supported stock on the Tavor and RFB. Also it's polymer so no cold issues like the RFB. The problem though right now with going to your weak side using the T97 is the iron sights. Good luck getting a sight picture on your left side if you're right handed, right eye dominant. Maybe others can do it, but I can't.

Fit and Finish:


I like the polymer molding on it. The metal looks decent and has that course black finish on it like the mags. Same sort of finish only in black as the CZ858 but no tool marks. The slightly textured finish on the metal works as texture wise it matches in decent with the polymer. Fit/finish is decent on this firearm. This firearm doesn't look out of place quality wise next to the FN PS90, or Tavor. It fits in with those rifles just fine. The polymer quality is in that league not the lower quality of the RFB.


Final Thoughts:

I think the part that saddens me about this firearm is that it has the potential to have been exceptional. If they had gone with the G model safety from the start, made the mag release more like the Tavor or at least ambi so you could do quick mag changes along with a normal tactical mag change rather then the reach around thing then it would have been pretty slick. That and a lower G36 style rail or at least a rail system that was better designed and not propriety inside the rail handle.

I consider this firearm the mini14 of Bullpup rifles. Like the mini14 I have no concerns about it's potential reliability. It's based on very tried and true operating principles. That being said the T97 has a few strange things to it. This is really evident with the ergo problems when compared to modern firearms. That being said it is well suited as a cool ranch rifle or plinker. I do like it. I'm being very picky here. It's a good entry level bullpup that is obviously popular. I'm actually very happy so far with this firearm. The price and the quality are good. I personally find it a nice looking firearm. There are some tweaks that need to be made though. Getting access to the T97 scopes is a must.

Here are a few comparison pictures:

Left to right. FN PS90, Type97, IWI Tavor gen 1.5 (scope is for ammo testing later on), Kel-Tec RFB

Close up of the T97 and Tavor. Note that they are actually the same length. The Tavor has a shorter flash hider.

 

[Ghost65]

Great review.

 

[pbr streetgang]

now if you could just get a Steyr Aug in that pic with the rest of the pups, you would have the perfect collection....

 

[adriel]

Great tip on the gas adjustment using a 223. Didn't know that.

 

[AB.boy]

Thanks for that, much appreciated. Looking forward to more info after you have had some range time.

 

[blaxsun]

Question: How'd you get the grease off the couch?

 

[Epoxy7]

Great tip on the gas adjustment using a 223. Didn't know that.

No problem. Hope it saves some people from scarred fingers.

now if you could just get a Steyr Aug in that pic with the rest of the pups, you would have the perfect collection....

Hhaha, Yes. I have always been a fan of the AUG. Unfortunately I got into this sport/hobby too late for one of those.

So have you made an anti aircraft stand yet for your four T97 rifles? Belt fed or MG34 style drums would be cool. I'd do it. Go big or go home!!

Question: How'd you get the grease off the couch?

Funny thing, I noticed that after too. But no worry. High quality leather. G96 doesn't do anything negative to it. Just wipes off and anything left won't hurt it. Plus treat the leather with mink oil every few years and you won't have any issues.

 

[pavmentsurfer]

 

[pavmentsurfer]

 

[pavmentsurfer]

OK... so after a trip to the range this afternoon I have some more observations about the T97 on its own, and in comparison to the Tavor. A video of fast firing 20 rounds from both is uploading as I type this. With my 3rd world style internet connection it should be about 3 months before its uploaded.

The T97 is an excellent shooting gun. I fired about 200 rounds of cheap norinco through it and other than some initial sorting out, the gun fired flawlessly. I tried the factory mag and 6 different LAR pistol mags. All the LAR mags worked perfect except one appeared difficult to insert and seat. It was periodic... not consistent. Not sure what that was all about.

Charging the gun is annoying. I cant figure out if I want to use my index or middle finger to pull the charge handle. Its light enough, but is still a bit hard on the fingers. i think it would be even more difficult for a woman with smaller hands.

The safety is just a joke. The ONLY redeeming quality of the safety IMO is that it CAN be engaged when the gun is NOT charged AND it prevents the gun from chambering a round if its on. This seems like a smart idea. However, if you plan to run the gun in any kind of pressure situation (as in, IDPA or 3 gun style matches) the safety is just terrible.

The mag release isnt as much of an issue as I had originally thought. Once you get accustomed to the wrap around grip needed to reach it with your left hand index finger, its not bad. My mags all dropped free, or, if I didnt want them to drop, I could easily hit the release and grab the mag with one hand. Inserting a mag was finicky. The almost extended magwel is hard to hit dead on when your trying to be fast. Releasing the bolt with the charge handle isnt the worst thing ever, but its definitely NOT as fast or as easy as on an AR or Tavor... a button would be so much better, but knowing Norinco it would probably be positioned infront of the muzzle for maximum inefficiency.

The gun shoots great. Honestly, it really does. The trigger is strange only in that there does not seem to be any actual release point. You pull it and its nice and light, it feels very positive, not mushy at all... but before you feel any actual resistance, the gun fires. Its also very long so its hard to memorize the actual release point. Yes, the trigger is smoother and lighter than the Tavor, but I prefer the Tavors trigger and I was way faster with the Tavor, for whatever thats worth.

Recoil is nearly non existent. The small butt pad fits nicely into your shoulder and can be held at all different positions comfortably. Thanks to the ultra low recoil no position, no matter how akward, results in any uncomfortableness in your shoulder. This is good. Because, with a sight rail so high, you need to sit the gun way up on your shoulder so just the bottom corner of the butt is touching you or you cant get any kind of chin weld. The little reflex sight seemed to be a good fit with this gun. I was able to produce a nearly one inch group at 25 yards off a bag. I was happy with this result. I didnt bother going any farther than 25 yards with the sight as I just suck with them anyway so im sure the groups would simply have opened up. Id like to see what the gun can do with a magnified optic. I think its decently accurate.

Holding the gun during fire is very comfortable. The grip is a nice shape and is at a nice angle, the foregrip is comfortable and locks your hand in nicely on the gun. Nothing stood out as uncomfortable to me other than the wonky chin weld necessary to see through the optic. We dont need to mention that again... its been covered enough. It sucks, deal with it.

I noticed the gun gets very hot all over. I fired about 200 rounds in 20 round sets... the first 100 were 5 at a time, the last 100 were in 10 round groups. By the time I was done the entire gun was very hot. The front grip was hot, the reciever of the gun was hot, even the pistol grip was hot. The long metal chassis inside this gun seems to dissipate heat all over the gun. The Tavor doesnt get hot to hold at all.

I had not FTF's or FTE's but I did learn a lesson about the gas system early on. The gas system has 3 positions labeled 1, 0 and 2. It comes factory pre-set to 0 and at this setting would not cycle the gun at all. It would fire but the action would not cycle back at all. The action had to be manually pulled back to eject the round and it could be VERY stiff. I then set the system to 1... this solved the problem entirely. After this, it fired and ejected every round without any issues at all.

Only time it didnt feed was when I didnt get an LAR mag seated tightly. it only happened once and I know the mag was locked in... but it just needed a tap and it was all better.

I had no issues at all with this thing. Its a great firing gun. Feels good in your hands, shoots well, functions excellent. But, after running the gun for an afternoon I have come to this conclusion.

Is the Tavor 2X the gun the T97 is? Yes... but just barely and only for the right user. If you just want a bull pup to go to the range and plink away, get a T97 and save yourself $1300. it does everything the Tavor does, with a few quirks that wont effect you off the bench or just plinking.

BUT... IF you intended to compete with this gun at all or IF you want a gun that you can be sure will be suitable in a SHTF situation... get the Tavor. The truth is, a Tavor isnt a $3000 gun as some have suggested and the T97 is not a $1000 as many have said it is. A Tavor can be picked up easily for $2500-2600 lightly used. A new T97 is going to cost you about $1200... so for a difference of about $1300 or so the Tavor is a better overall gun. It works the way you think it should with no surprises or disappointments. And it should... its a darn expensive rig.

But the T97 is not at all disappointing when you factor in the price. Im very happy with mine. Im going to keep it for a while and put some more rounds through it. Will I keep it forever? Im not sure. I know my Tavor isnt going anywhere anytime soon, thats a fact and if I could only own one it would be the Tavor. But I can afford a Tavor. If you cant, dont feel bad about buying a T97.

 

[pavmentsurfer]

Another comparison pic of the 2 guns at the range:



Here are some pics of the bolt/bolt carriers from both guns: (T97 top, Tavor bottom)






Here are some shots of the T97's gas selector. You have to push in the notched metal lever (push it toward the carry handle) and turn the paddle. When your disassembling the gun, this is also how you remove the piston and spring.



(NOTE: That is NOT rust in the pictures... its just a weird flash reflection from my camera)

 

[pavmentsurfer]

New pics.

I had this idea to use a cheek riser from a Magpul CTS stock to get a bit better cheek weld. I thought perhaps I could cut a few slots in the rear cover and have it snap on just like it does on the CTR... but after looking at it, it wont work that way. So I decided to get a bit more old school.





I wish I could say it was more custom but its just held on with velcro. Its tight, doesnt wiggle and isnt going to fall off. Time will tell how it holds up but I can say this, cheek weld is improved at least %75... I can actually use my cheek on the riser and see right through the sight. Plus, its completely removable, no modifications to the gun at all.

 

[Pr589]

Great post and pics! Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Captain Paul]

wow great posts guys, thanks for taking the time. I think i might pick one very soon.

 

[Crazyest Canuck]

Question: How'd you get the grease off the couch?

Oh he likes it greasy!
At least thatz what his best mate says
LoL!!!
I missed the blaxsun moments

 

[5440fight]

No pics for me, pavementsurfer, photobucket issues?

 

[Mean Steak]

Just finished shooting my T97 last night. It was as good as my last T97 before the reclassification. It is every bit as accurate as I remember. Hitting the 40" gong at 300 meters wasn't difficult at all. And the confirmation metal "ringing" sound was pleasing to the ear.
The only problem I have is the grip is still to small, I'm 6'4" and have really large hands... I was thinking maybe a Hogue grip?
Anyone else have the same problem?