No4 zeroing issue

[Cdn303]

So I took one of my No4’s shooting the other day. At 100 yards, rounds blew right over the target. So I brought it into 50 yards and fired another 5 rounds (Red squares, 8” high). I would like it to be shooting 3”-4” high at 100” (the top of the white square). So I put a higher front sight in and fired another 5 rounds (yellow triangles; I pulled one). Still about 7” high. The front sight was a .015 and I went up to a .060. This should have moved the point of impact down, correct? If so, why did it not do this on my rifle? I’ve got a set of front sights from -.030 to .090. Should I try a higher one still?

Circle is 12”. White rectangle is 2”x3”. Point of aim was at arrow.


As an aside, I thought perhaps the pressure at the tip of the stock was not enough. So I shimmed the rear of the stock near the draws with one layer of paper, giving me more pressure at the tip. This just caused it to string vertically (the blue circles), so I removed the shim.

 

[louthepou]

What rear sight are you using? What part of it were you looking through?

 

[cantom]

Did you check the forend for That Damned Crack? (at the rear)

Have you ever heard that Lee Enfield No 4's were sighted for 300 yards with bayonet fixed?

 

[Cdn303]

What rear sight are you using? What part of it were you looking through?

Mk2 type using the 300yd hole.

Did you check the forend for That Damned Crack? (at the rear)

Have you ever heard that Lee Enfield No 4's were sighted for 300 yards with bayonet fixed?

Yes, I recently fixed TDC.

Yes, but shouldn't I be able to sight the rifle in for a shorter distance anyways. Not a lot of 300 yard ranges around. I prefer to have my rifles shooting POI a wee bit closer to POA. 8" high at 50 yards seems a bit excessive. As I stated in the OP, my first 5 shots blew right over the target, which was a least 12" high

 

[points]

Was the rifle warmer when you fired the last group. A hot barrel can be effected by the bedding.
I would try the highest forsight you have. Just let it cool down between groups
I don't think you will get it much lower though. Ideally the rifle would leave the factory with a mid sized blade and set to 300 yards. It should shoot higher at 100.

 

[bigedp51]

The bedding and up pressure at the fore end tip can cause the rifle to shoot high. Remove the trigger guard and remove the bushing/collar on the forward trigger guard screw. Re-install the trigger guard without the bushing/collar and re-shoot your target and see if the POI moves. You might be dealing with wood shrinkage and insufficient up pressure at the fore end tip.

Before removing the trigger guard tighten the king screw and mark the location of the screw slot with a pencil. After removing the bushing/collar and re-installing the trigger guard see if the screw turns past the pencil mark on the trigger guard. If the screw turns past the pencil mark the bushing/collar is too long and will need to be shortened.

As a side note the only No.4 sight that requires the bayonet to be attached when sighting in is the Mk.2 300/600 rear sight. All other No.4 rifles are sighted in without the bayonet and the rear sight raised and set at 200 yards.

 

[Cdn303]

The bedding and up pressure at the fore end tip can cause the rifle to shoot high... You might be dealing with wood shrinkage and insufficient up pressure at the fore end tip.

As a side note the only No.4 sight that requires the bayonet to be attached when sighting in is the Mk.2 300/600 rear sight. All other No.4 rifles are sighted in without the bayonet and the rear sight raised and set at 200 yards.

I thought that the tip pressure was a little light, that is why I shimmed the rear of the stock. It pivoted the stock around the king screw and gave me more tip pressure, but all that did was cause it to vertically string.

I also have a spare MK1 rear sight. I'll pop that in and try it this weekend.

 

[BadgerDog]

Should I try a higher one still?

Jay Currah's Markmanship Informationhttp://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=mi.htm

Jay Currah's Sighting Instructions For The Enfield Riflehttp://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ti15.htm

Jay Currah's Calculating Correct Front Sight Height for Zerohttp://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ti12.htm

Enfield Sight Basicshttp://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ti14.htm

Presenting the Johnson Method of Musketry Coaching As Adopted By the Canadian Army, Ottawa, Chief of the General Staff.

"Shoot-to-Live" - 1945 (click here)

This is an excellent Canadian Government issued training manual. If you are specifically a collector and shooter of Lee Enfield rifles, you'll find this to be an outstanding reference work and it contains a wealth of information on how to properly shoot the No.4 Mk1 Enfield, although much of the content is applicable to any bolt action rifle. I remember being issued this manual as part of our regimental rifle team, when I was a little younger back in the early 60's.

Hope this helps...

Regards,
Doug

 

[bigedp51]

I thought that the tip pressure was a little light, that is why I shimmed the rear of the stock. It pivoted the stock around the king screw and gave me more tip pressure, but all that did was cause it to vertically string.

I also have a spare MK1 rear sight. I'll pop that in and try it this weekend.

Vertical stringing is a sign of a loose fore stock and bedding issues in the draws area.

 

[cantom]

CDN .303- Perhaps do what I just did. I went to Home Building Centre and bought a gallon of raw linseed oil. Soak your wood set and forend in it for a while, give the wood a good drink. Between wood drying out/shrinkage and That Damned Crack...would probably explain most of your problem.

 

[bigedp51]

If you can insert a feeler gauge between the rear of the fore stock and the receiver socket below the reinforcement strap you have wood shrinkage. And soaking the stock as cantom suggested in raw linseed oil may re-hydrate the wood. Even better would be a 50/50 mix of turpentine and raw linseed oil to help it penetrate deeper into the wood.

If the rifle still shoots high you will need to shim the draws and adjust the bushing/collar height and ensure the rear draws area is a tight fit.

You should also read the following manuals I donated below:

1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Manuals (Complete Set)
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=335-1991-No.4-%28All-Marks%29-.303-Rifle-Manuals-%28Complete-Set%29

REME Precis No. SA/Rifles/3 (Zeroing of No.1, No.3, No.4, No.5 Rifles)
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=331-REME-Precis-No.-SA-Rifles-3-%28Zeroing-of-No.1-No.3-No.4-No.5-Rifles%29

The Canadian Marksman (Bedding the 7.62mm No.4 Rifle) - 1965
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=305-The-Canadian-Marksman-%28Bedding-the-7.62mm-No.4-Rifle%29-1965

 

[cantom]

As I mentioned before, I find the smell of Turpentine kind of sickening in the house. But the raw linseed oil is really inoffensive. Actually pleasant smelling if anything.

For sure, the Turp will help it penetrate better though if that doesn't bother you.

I warmed the RLO up first with my paint stripper heat gun and then dipped the forend right in.

 

[bigedp51]

cantom, I do not mind the smell that much and normally apply it in the garage with the door open. "But" the main reason I use turpentine is it is a natural evaporative oil and less toxic than other type thinners. Also please note American safety standards are not as high as British and Commonwealth standards and many of our products are not the same as yours in Canada.

And a wallpaper wetting tray makes a good soaking tank.

 

[Skaal-tel]

I had a hard time zeroing my no4 as well.

Should shoot 6" high at 30yd, 12" high at 100yd and bang on at 300yd, if I remember reading shoot to live correctly.

I set mine to hit 6" high at 100yd, for now. When aiming at the bottom of a full circle target similar to yours, I end up in the bullseye. Not ideal, but certainly effective.

I made one of these to get the job done.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oddshot9/index.asp

 

[points]

I've never heard of soaking in turpentine solution to treat the wood. Makes sense though. I shall try it out on some of my stuff. Thanks

 

[bigedp51]

I've never heard of soaking in turpentine solution to treat the wood. Makes sense though. I shall try it out on some of my stuff. Thanks

You don't soak the wood in turpentine, you mix raw linseed oil 50/50 with turpentine, this was the pre-petroleum age mixture. Today some people use mineral spirits because it has less objectionable smell. The purpose of thinning is to help the raw linseed oil penetrate deeper into the wood. The military used heated tanks of raw linseed oil to soak the wood in which did the same thing and caused the linseed oil to thin and penetrate deeper into the wood.

 

[Cdn303]

Ok, so I just got home from shoosting. Here is the update.

Last night I played around with it and found:
1.I cannot insert a feeler gauge between the rear of the fore stock and the receiver socket below the reinforcement strap.
2.I tried removing the trigger guard and remove the bushing/collar on the forward trigger guard screw, re-install the trigger guard without the bushing/collar. It only allowed me to tighten the king screw about half the width of the slot in the screw.
3. Taking the stock off is quite a chore. It is very tight.

Today: The MK1 rear sight put me 6 inches below POA (with the sight that I had switched in). So I swapped it back for the original front sight and it brought me about where I want to be. The group sizes were nothing to brag about. But I am thinking there is defiantly a bedding issue affecting the tip pressure. When I got home I pulled out another No4 that I have and compared the tip pressure. The one I am having issues with has barely any, while the other has a firm connection.

So, whenever I get some time in the next week I am going to play around a little more and see what I can do to tighten it back up. I plan on soaking the stock this year rather then the usual hand rubbing the oil on like I usually do. And biged, that is a good idea about using a wallpaper tray to soak the stocks. Now if I could find something similar that would fit a P14 stock. Hmm...

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[points]

Bigedp51 Thanks for pointing out the lindseed turpentine mix. Strangely, I have read it befor in Skennertons " Accurixing and shooting Lee Enfields". It just went right past me. I have a #1 That has real dry wood and will soak it as suggested.

 

[bigedp51]

I had a hard time zeroing my no4 as well.

Should shoot 6" high at 30yd, 12" high at 100yd and bang on at 300yd, if I remember reading shoot to live correctly.

I set mine to hit 6" high at 100yd, for now. When aiming at the bottom of a full circle target similar to yours, I end up in the bullseye. Not ideal, but certainly effective.

You are incorrect, if you would just read the manuals I linked above the wrong information wouldn't be posted in forums.

All Enfield rifles should shoot 3 inches high at 100 yards with the exception of No.4 rifles fitted with the Mk.2 rear sight (300-600 flip sight) which is 6 inches high at 100 yards.

 

[bigedp51]

Cdn303

When you have any wood shrinkage in the draws area the very rear of the fore stock will move "upward" toward the bottom of the receiver. When the rear of the stock moves upward the fore end tip moves downward and you loose up pressure.

The fore stock has only one bedding screw, the forward trigger guard screw, the draws area at the rear of the stock acts like the missing second bedding screw and holds the rear of the stock in the correct position. Because you only have one screw the forward trigger screw is the fulcrum point and the fore stock stock pivots at this point like a kids teeter totter or seesaw.






By soaking the fore stock in raw linseed oil the rear draws area should swell and enlarge. This will make the rear of the stock rest at a "lower" position and raise the fore end tip and increase up pressure. If soaking the wood with raw linseed oil doesn't correct the problem then the draws area will need to be shimmed.

Below in the blue area is the draws area of the fore stock, when the stock is loose or requires more up pressure shims are added. The red area is a shimming area used in the Canadian Marksman for bedding purposes, the shim thickness maintains the distance between the bottom of the receiver and the top of the fore stock. This helps keep constant up pressure at the fore end tip and the shim thickness can vary to control up pressure.



Below on the left is a Australian No.1 range rifle with modified bedding, the copper shims area normal bedding on Australian Enfield rifles. The two screws at the very bottom of the photo are screwed into two holes drilled and tapped in the receiver socket. These two screws were used to pull the rear of the stock into tight contact with the receiver socket, the red arrows point to the top shims use to help keep constant up pressure at the fore end tip. The photo on the right is from the Canadian Marksman on center bedding the No.4 Enfield.



Below the draws area and the contact points on the bottom of the receiver. If you would draw lines along the receiver socket (red arrow) and the forward contact point (white arrow) it forms a tapered wedge. Meaning when you shim these points on the fore stock it tightens the draws area and forces the rear of the stock downward and increases up pressure at the fore end tip.