Strange Cartridge

mooncoon

mooncoon

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I was given a strange cartridge recently, that baffles me as to what it can be. The bullet diameter appears to be .348, the base diameter is .446 and cartridge by itself is .893 long and a loaded length of 1.24"
The reason that I am asking this in Antiques is that although the shell at first glance appears to be a rimfire, it has a center struck mark apparently from a firing pin. I suspect it may be inside primed rather than rimfire. That is to say that it has a centerfire type primer which is completely inside the case

I welcome any suggestions as to what caliber the cartridge is

cheers mooncoon

 
This is interesting. When do we get to see a picture of the base?

Internally lubricated, non heeled, lead bullet.

The bottom does resemble a rimfire but it doesn't seem properly formed so I understand the thought about being inside primed which would be an oddity in itself.

I don't see a crimp but instead it looks flared so I'm guessing you or someone has already had this apart. The lead looks well handled too.

The picture makes the case look a bit strange. Is it brass with patina or something else lacquered?

Will go look in some books.
 
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This one is odd indeed. Not much has been made in .348 and even less in a pistol caliber which this appears to be. Even if you look at a few thou higher or lower there isn't much to be found there either. Right now I'm leaning towards this being a proprietary cartridge for a specific arm. At one time there was a bunch of monkey business in cartridge design to get around various patents. That would certainly make this an antique if true

Any marks on the base other than the strike? The strike by description doesn't mean much. Just sounds like someone tried it in a firearm that it seemed to fit.

This is the closest I have found so far:

35 Allen and Wheelock
ht tp://www.gunauction.com/buy/11057617/collectible-ammo-for-sale/american-rifle/allen-and-wheelock-35-rimfire-factory-box-rare
The case isn't necked and looks too long. Also, it is an outside lubricated, heeled, lead bullet so not the same.

Notice the properly formed rimfire base.

I didn't find this 35 Allen in Cartridges of the World either but mine is a bit old.
 
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Nothing in my version of Cartridges of the World either, nor does that look familiar (I'm sure I would remember that short neck)

One source I may suggest (it requires joining) is the International Ammunition Association, I've found some of their resources useful in the recent past. (I'm not a member or I'd do some searching there myself)

h ttp://www.cartridgecollectors.org/

Fascinating find
 
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Well I'm stumped at the moment.

I found little searching for necked rimfire. Internal centerfire didn't bring up much either but I did find this:

Benet Primed
benet.jpg

Here: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=9785.0
Notice the crimp marks near the base that holds the primer in place. Yours doesn't have these.

Does the bottom look like the 3rd one in this picture?
8mediumr.jpg


Any headstamp?
 
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there is no head stamp on the base and it does look vaguely like #3 cartridge base. I have never pulled the bullet but I am guessing it might be hollow based and probably no powder in the case (manufacturing flaw?) because the case feels very light. The walls of the case are tapered about .006" over its length. I will have to check mty 45-70 inside primed case; I don't recall it having a base crimp like the shell you show. I went through Cartridges of the World and also the Handloaders Guide and could not find anything close. Also strange is that the "firing pin dent" is flat bottomed like a pin punch but it is perfectly centered. I will try to take a photo later today and post it. Even as a dummy (military) training shell, there does not seem to be anything close to it.

I only just thought of military training shells and I will have to check its base diameter against centerfire handgun cartridges; maybe it was something like the 5 in 1 blanks used in cowboy movies. My impression is that the inside primed shells were a very short lived experiment somewhere around 1870 and the only one that I have ever seem was in 45-70

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
there is no head stamp on the base and it does look vaguely like #3 cartridge base. I have never pulled the bullet but I am guessing it might be hollow based and probably no powder in the case (manufacturing flaw?) because the case feels very light. The walls of the case are tapered about .006" over its length. I will have to check mty 45-70 inside primed case; I don't recall it having a base crimp like the shell you show. I went through Cartridges of the World and also the Handloaders Guide and could not find anything close. Also strange is that the "firing pin dent" is flat bottomed like a pin punch but it is perfectly centered. I will try to take a photo later today and post it. Even as a dummy (military) training shell, there does not seem to be anything close to it.

I only just thought of military training shells and I will have to check its base diameter against centerfire handgun cartridges; maybe it was something like the 5 in 1 blanks used in cowboy movies. My impression is that the inside primed shells were a very short lived experiment somewhere around 1870 and the only one that I have ever seem was in 45-70

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

A friend has in his possession an internally primed cannister or grapeshot cartridge, rather an interesting piece. Bore diameter looks to be close to an inch.
 
Road King said:
That is not a real cartridge. It’s for a toy pistol/revolver (i.e. Matel). There are quite a number of these around and lots of different variations too. It has nominal value ( 50 cents to 2.00).
Click to expand...

Thanks; something I never would have thought of. Seems reasonable considering the light weight and not matching any cartridge that I could find

cheers mooncoon
 
awesome thread, interesting to see the analysis and resolution

Thanks Mooncoon, always bringing something interesting to the table

Tip of the Hat sir
 
Candy cigs, and replica toy bullets for toy guns, mechano sets, evel kenievel. Real scout badges! Like knife mastery. So many things that were right.
 
Road King said:
That is not a real cartridge. It’s for a toy pistol/revolver (i.e. Matel). There are quite a number of these around and lots of different variations too. It has nominal value ( 50 cents to 2.00).
Click to expand...

That's fascinating - I recall plastic versions 30 years ago, but clearly not real; the brass (metal) must be '50s? 60s? Guess I can Google that

Edit: These appear to be similar?

h ttp://www.nicholscapguns.com/graphics/scrapbook/mattel/bulletpak-1.htm

I'm interested as this is good to know browsing tables.

There does appear to be some collector interest out there
 
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