A pill through the lungs or heart nets a dead animal regardless of what continent it is on... But on marginal or poor hits some animals do seem to have a tenacity in clinging to life to their last drop of blood... I guided sports long enough on bears to have a repetoire of crazy tales...
.243 vs .30-30 on deer?
- Thread starter philthygeezer
- Start date
while guiding a man shot 14 times a caribou before the end ... do you think that caribou are strong on receiving lead just with a sample like mine ...
pound for pound the strongest animal i ve ever seen is the roe deer but you have to see to believe it ...
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Exceptions make the rule I guess. Caribou are not notorious for being "tough", regardless of your one experience.
I remember my barber in Alberta telling me about his hunting. He said he shot a white tail buck perfectly with a 308 and it ran off and he couldn't find it.So that was the last time he used that weak 308 and was goind to carry his 300mag from now on and have no more deer run off . I allways wondered what happened when he shot another deer with the 300 mag and it ran off. 50 BMG would have to be his next choice I guess.
As in proper bullet for intended game. In other words, don't use a .243 varmint bullet on a deer. Barnes TSX on deer, two thumbs up. 30/30 fine for deer within its range limitations.
Modern bullet construction helps as well.
My .243 H&R gets fed TSX.
A few years ago, I was in a gun shop on the second day of the deer season when a hunter came in. He asked if they still had the .300 RUM on the rack. Yep. Good, I want to trade this on it. He had purchased a .300 WM less than a month before, had fired 4 rounds that morning at a deer, hit it, left blood and hair, but it ran away. He needed a rifle that would knock down a deer when he hit it. I was shocked at this entire exchange. Buddy took the rifle, put it on the counter, took down the new rifle from the rack and started filling out the paperwork for the transfer.
Once he left, with his new rifle, the guy behind the counter told me that that was the 4th rifle he had bought in 2years. He bought his first, a .308 just after getting his hunter course. Failed to harvest a deer, despite hitting 2. Part way through the season, he came in to trade it for a 7mm Remington Magnum. Again, failed to harvest a deer even though he found evidence of a hit even though he and friends looked for it. End of the season, he stated that he would need a larger rifle actually capable of killing deer for the next year, but he needed to do some research first on which one that would be. Summer came along, buddy found out that the minimum for deer was a .300 WM. So that's what he wanted..."boy, now, I'll get a deer"... see how that went... Should check up on that next time I'm in there.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A good .243 bullet, one that weighs between 85 and 100 grs can be counted on to expand to .45 caliber, and will probably penetrate a foot or slightly more. As such it will easily kill a deer, but switch to a cup and core bullet, and I am of the opinion that the .243 tops out at 100 pound game. A .30/30 doesn't need as good a bullet to perform well due to its slower impact velocity. While 170 gr is the most common, 125s, 130s, and 150 have proven to be viable choices in applications where pointed bullets can be used, and cast bullets from 180-200 grs are not unheard of. If the .30/30 slug expands, it will likely end up between .45 and .60 caliber depending on the choice of bullet and the range at impact. The less the bullet expands, the deeper it will penetrate; but given a .60 caliber frontal diameter, the .30/30 bullet will typically make a foot of penetration. IMHO, if the bullet can't be counted on to penetrate more than a foot, a 200 pound game animal is about its limit. Clearly a 6mm bullet won't do the larger game any good, but in this business of cartridge choice for big game, why is it necessary or even reasonable to choose the lowest common denominator? Despite my opinion, a million moose have been done in with .30/30s; but could that comes down to a lack of options rather than the .30/30 being the ideal moose cartridge? But Sheep's comparison between a 6.5 and the 6mm is curious, considering a typical moderate capacity 6.5 bullet weighs 25% more, expands 20% larger, and penetrates 30% deeper.
Oryx neither that was my point ...
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Actually, in talking with various PH's and reading many books on African hunting, Oryx are actually considered to be pretty tough.
hammering hank
CGN Regular
- Location
- Barrie north of
+1 except for my wifes blr in 243 shooting open sights loaded with 105gr speer round nose hot cores, short throw action with most shots under 75 yds where we are this combo works great but that being said a 30-30 would be as good.
canadaman30
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Far from the City
The 243 will cleanly kill a helluva lot bigger animal than 100lbs.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
You're missing the point. On which big game animals is 12" of penetration sufficient when you're faced with something other than a broadside shot? Once your cartridge's terminal performance has limited you to only one particular shot, your cartridge selection is specific rather than general purpose. The more critical the shot angle becomes, the more specific its use becomes, thereby making it the expert's choice rather than the best choice for everyone. The flip side of the question is if there is an animal you wouldn't shoot with a .243. Elk have certainly be killed with them, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Now premium bullets have been game changers where small bores are concerned, which probably makes the .243 suitable for game up to 200 pounds. Even so I'm still inclined to keep my .243 as a varmint, wolf, seal rifle, topping it out at barren ground caribou. IMHO, true big game cartridges start with the 6.5s, and like many here, I have a selection of rifles that starting with the .270 are fully capable game killers so I don't have to rely on a 6mm or a .22 when I'm big game hunting. If one's personal circumstances limit him to a single rifle for all of his shooting chores, I can see where a .243 might be considered, but for those adults not restricted by physical ailment or limitation, considerations of low recoil and sub MOA accuracy are unnecessary in a typical big game rifle.
If we look at those who hunt the world, it would seem that more often than not their cartridge of choice is a .300 magnum. Why would that be if the .243 is such a fine performer on all game under a half ton? Now I'm not particularly enamored with the .300 myself, frankly if I'm going to put up with that level of bluster and fuss, I'll choose a .375, but I haven't heard of anyone who who would choose a .243 for such duty. Yet the small bore advocates make it sound like the .243 is suitable for all game from prairie dogs to elephants; I think there was even a video posted on here that showed a gal who killed an elk at long range with a .243. Such stunts should be considered a lesson of how not to do it. Even Warren Page who is much credited with the creation of the .243, preferred it for the smaller species of deer such a Euro Chamois and Texas whitetails. When he hunted in BC he chose a .270 and when after Asiatic sheep, and North American elk he preferred his 7mm Mashburn, a round ballistically similar to the 7 mag Remington.
Now much has improved in bullet design and performance since the days of the Page Super Pooper, but only so much can be done with a 100 gr bullet, that expands to .45 caliber. In comparison with the .45 ACP pistol cartridge, the .243 comes up short, weighing less than half, keeping in mind that it's velocity will be similar to that of the .45 at the muzzle, once the 6mm bullet has fully expanded. And that probably puts things into perspective; given the flat trajectory of the .243, making it tempting to take shots out to a quarter mile or more, terminally, you have half of the wounding potential that the .45 auto has at the muzzle.
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Last year a bull moose walked 10 yards and dropped after a single shot from a 243. Three years earlier a quartering shot in a whitetail from the same rifle failed to make it to the vitals. After tracking the deer dropped to a 7mm-08 in the boiler room via left shoulder.
Similar stories with the 30-30, either is fine if you use it within its limitations. However I would have more faith in the 30-30 making it through bone.
I ran into a fellow last year hunting moose with a 223 loaded up with 60 grain partitions, he got his moose, must have either been lucky, or patient and careful with his shot. Although I wouldn't be caught hunting big game with a .224, especially something as small as a 223.
Similar stories with the 30-30, either is fine if you use it within its limitations. However I would have more faith in the 30-30 making it through bone.
I ran into a fellow last year hunting moose with a 223 loaded up with 60 grain partitions, he got his moose, must have either been lucky, or patient and careful with his shot. Although I wouldn't be caught hunting big game with a .224, especially something as small as a 223.
dont want to occupy that thread with our discussion but my experiences didnt match your says ... now if you have said wildbeest .....
