Can CCI Shotshells (45 ACP) be used in antique Webley revolvers?

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RSA1

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Hi,

Does any member KNOW if it is safe to shoot the CCI 45 ACP shotshells in an Antique Webley (455)? I know the shotshells for 38/357 are loaded at the lower level to accommodate 38 Spl revolvers, and the same goes for 44 Spl/44 Mag.

If it can be fired, has anybody ever chronographed these loads? All factual info appreciated.

RSA1
 
Hi,

I buy CCI shotshells whenever I find them in a store. The last batch, including these in 45 ACP, were obtained at Al Simmons in Hamilton. They had several different cartridges/calibres in stock, if memory serves me correct there was 22 LR, 22 WMR, 9mmP, 38Spl/357 Mag, 44 Spl/44 Mag and 45 ACP.

RSA1
 
I would think that those cartridges intended for auto's would have to run at pressures sufficient enough to reliably cycle the pistols actions. This to me would imply that they might be equal to, or at least not much less pressure than any other commercial load for that cartridge? The revolver cartridges could easily be low-pressure without issue...?
 
Hi, Thank you for the input.

CCI lists the 45 ACP shotshell as having a 120gr load, fired to 1100ft/s. This seems quite mild, so I believe it should be fine in my old 455 Webley, regarding pressure. However they do print the following warning: "40 S&W and 45 Auto use an extended cartridge case instead of a plastic capsule; 45 Auto shotshell is not intended for revolvers." I think this is due to bad / erratic shot pattern caused by the jump of the shot from the cylinder into the barrel.

Any informed opinions?

RSA1
 
I would not recommend shooting anything smokeless powder in a revolver designed for black powder. That's a good way to either ruin the gun or yourself. You have to remember they didn't even have proper heat treating when these were designed.
 
kayaker1 said:
I would think that those cartridges intended for auto's would have to run at pressures sufficient enough to reliably cycle the pistols actions. This to me would imply that they might be equal to, or at least not much less pressure than any other commercial load for that cartridge? The revolver cartridges could easily be low-pressure without issue...?
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I have not seen any for a while but I think there's a warning on the box that states they may not operate the actions of semi auto firearms. I think I might have some .22's buried somewhere I might have to dig them up and have a look.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
I would not recommend shooting anything smokeless powder in a revolver designed for black powder. That's a good way to either ruin the gun or yourself. You have to remember they didn't even have proper heat treating when these were designed.
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...and yet the british military fed these same revolvers smokeless loads for 40+ years. Apparently they should all be dead, LOL.

The thing that so many people don't grasp is that smokeless loads are safe as long as they are within the same pressure parameters of the original cartridge. There are smokeless powders that will work very safely and very well in these and other firearms originally designed for black powder, but the person using them must be knowledeable and competent reloaders. There is a possibility of making a mistake and overcharging with ANY smokeless load whether in antique or modern firearms, whereas that is not usually the case with black powder. So people who are not competent reloaders should probably stick to black powder or factory ammo.
 
jethunter said:
...and yet the british military fed these same revolvers smokeless loads for 40+ years. Apparently they should all be dead, LOL.

The thing that so many people don't grasp is that smokeless loads are safe as long as they are within the same pressure parameters of the original cartridge. There are smokeless powders that will work very safely and very well in these and other firearms originally designed for black powder, but the person using them must be knowledeable and competent reloaders. There is a possibility of making a mistake and overcharging with ANY smokeless load whether in antique or modern firearms, whereas that is not usually the case with black powder. So people who are not competent reloaders should probably stick to black powder or factory ammo.
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Yes they did, they also made sure that the pressures would work for the older Revolvers. This is a revolver CONVERTED to shoot 45 ACP not designed to. From what I understand the 45 ACP generates much higher pressure than a .455 Webley. 45 ACP factory ammo will likely be too high a pressure as the round wasn't designed to work with the Revolver in the first place.

To the OP, I would make sure you do the research before you shoot, for this could have some bad results. Best of luck
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Yes they did, they also made sure that the pressures would work for the older Revolvers. This is a revolver CONVERTED to shoot 45 ACP not designed to. From what I understand the 45 ACP generates much higher pressure than a .455 Webley. 45 ACP factory ammo will likely be too high a pressure as the round wasn't designed to work with the Revolver in the first place.

To the OP, I would make sure you do the research before you shoot, for this could have some bad results. Best of luck
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Exactly - load it to the correct pressure and it's not a problem, just like any other cartridge in any antique or modern firearm. Good Luck is not needed to use smokeless powders, only competence.

Your new comments on the .45acp pressures is relevant but not exactly earth-shattering news for any of the regulars on this forum, but I guess it doesn't hurt to say it again for the new folk: The MKI/MKII/MKIII Webley Service Revolvers were designed to shoot the 455 Webley cartridge, which was regulated to approximately 12,500 psi. Factory .45acp is loaded to approx 18,000 psi. Therfore only 45acp which has been downloaded to +/- 12,500 psi or lower should be used in these revolvers.

:)
 
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Hi,

Once again thank you for the comments.

Shooting any ammo in an Antique needs to be safe, i.e. not exceed original pressure max, as well as not exceed the pressure spike exhibited by BP. So ANY propellant can be loaded into ammo intended to be used in an Antique, as long as the selected propellant & load does not cause pressure in excess of the original safe levels of the Antique, and the actual tempo by which the max pressure is reached, does not exceeded that of the original BP for which the Antique was designed. This means that most smokeless powders are unsuitable in a particular Antique & load combination, but others may work. So it is not only working up to a safe bullet/velocity combination which must be kept in mind.

At present I am working up loads in 45 Auto Rim cases and the excellent 250gr Lead SWC HP bullets produced and sold by Jethunter, for my 455 Webley. I do chronograph all loads, and this is the only way to go. I have tried the 185gr Hornady XTP load listed in their manual, but found it very disappointing and expensive. I am also helping a friend chrono his loads for an older 450 Adams, using the 220gr Lead RN bullets produced by Jethunter, and we are making progress, albeit at a very slow pace.

In another post the comment was made that Elmer Keith worked with 2400, so it must be the right choice. I have found 2400 fine in the larger case of the 45 Auto Rim, but too bulky for the small 450 Adams cases. But my point is Elmer did not have the same selection of powders as we have today, so he had to use old standby powders like 2400. I would love to try others such as Blue Dot (seems promising) and AutoComp, obviously using the chrony, and perhaps be able to share useful findings (not actual load data). But in the meantime, I need a shotshell load for my 455 Webley; Jethunter has all I need in lead bullets.

RSA1 (just a local reloader)
 
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