Thinking of trying a more traditional round ball muzzleloader. What do you reccomend

dthunter

dthunter

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Hi guys!

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?
I know the theories state that a slower twist is supposed to be better for a round ball.

The T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate.

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.

Is there a great difference in potential accuracy, or is it more "theoretical" at best?

I tend to push accuracy as much as possible. Its my nature I guess. I would like to get sub 2" groups at 100 regularily or better.

I like the thoughts of the Hawken twist rate being suitable for conicals as well, but I have inline muzzleloaders I normally use for those bullets. Whats your thoughts on this?

I have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for more than 20 years, but havent explored the round ball shooters yet. I think it could be fun.

Thankyou for your input guys!
 
Much in your post so I will just stick with one question. If you want to shoot RB's exclusively, go with a slow twist barrel 1:60"-1:68". The 1:48" is a compromise twist so its suppose to shoot both RB and conical bullets reasonably well. I have a Hawken 50 cal rifle with a 1:48" twist that I can't get to shoot worth a damn with sabots or conical bullets but I can get 'hunting' accuracy out to about 100 yards or so with RB's. Your mileage may vary.

Slow for RB's, fast for sabots/conical. Skip the 1:48" twist barrels IMHO.
 
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I have a Trade Rifle .54cal with a 48-inch twist, and find it gives very good RB accuracy with lighter loads. Beyond about 60 grains it starts to fall apart real fast. It does quite well with conicals as well, but as you stated yourself, I have other guns to use with those.

I find the TC's have stocks with a high comb, while the Lymans have lower combs which fit my cheek much more comfortably when using iron sights.
 
I think you are going to be disappointed if you look for "sub 2" groups at 100" with a traditional style muzzle loader and open sights.

I have a .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle with fixed buckhorn sights and I'm happy with 2" groups at 50 yds (but then I have 71 year old eyes!). A couple of friends have Lyman Great Plains rifles and they have not been able to come close to the 2" group at 100 yds. One of them has the Lyman peep sight on his rifle.

While the slower twists are supposed to be more accurate with round ball - the best 100 yd shooting I've seen was from a friend with a 1 in 48" .50 cal Thompson Center Hawken. From a bench rest, at 100 yds, he regularly broke clay targets.

In the 2003 Vol. XII Number 10 edition of the NFA's Canadian Firearms Journal Mr. Tyler Lawrason tested a flintlock .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle with 100 grs of FFg, a .490 round ball, and a .010 cotton patch lubricated with Crisco. This produced groups of 2.5 cm (about 1") at 50 metres and 7.5 cm (just under 3") at 100 meters. I think that's about as good a group as you can expect with a traditional style rifle and open sights.
 
Thankyou for The responses guys!
I am a fairly meticulous type of shooter. I tend to push hard to maximise what ever I am shooting (OCD) lol!
My eyes are very good "still", but that could change at any time!(i'm 46).

It seems to me that if I want to get high performance (accuracy wise), I need to find the balance of where my chosen twist rate shines.
Faster 1:48", slower Velocities(round ball), and 1:60" for higher velocities (round ball).

My best bet is probably go to the 1:60" for "pure" round ball shooting.
 
Goldenlakepete said:
I think you are going to be disappointed if you look for "sub 2" groups at 100" with a traditional style muzzle loader and open sights.

I have a .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle with fixed buckhorn sights and I'm happy with 2" groups at 50 yds (but then I have 71 year old eyes!). A couple of friends have Lyman Great Plains rifles and they have not been able to come close to the 2" group at 100 yds. One of them has the Lyman peep sight on his rifle.

While the slower twists are supposed to be more accurate with round ball - the best 100 yd shooting I've seen was from a friend with a 1 in 48" .50 cal Thompson Center Hawken. From a bench rest, at 100 yds, he regularly broke clay targets.

In the 2003 Vol. XII Number 10 edition of the NFA's Canadian Firearms Journal Mr. Tyler Lawrason tested a flintlock .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle with 100 grs of FFg, a .490 round ball, and a .010 cotton patch lubricated with Crisco. This produced groups of 2.5 cm (about 1") at 50 metres and 7.5 cm (just under 3") at 100 meters. I think that's about as good a group as you can expect with a traditional style rifle and open sights.
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^My meager experiments with my Browning Mountian Rifle (a RB shooter in the style of a Hawken rifle) seems to follow this path also Goldenlakepete.
This is my very first muzzleloading rifle, so I'm a novice on this subject.

PS: I'm not 110% sure I'd recommend this discontinued rifle. The mainspring broke last fall, right in the middle of deer season. A quick (3 week turnaround) trip to L&R Lock Company, in South Carolina resolved this issue.
No problems since though.
 
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If you are planning on hunting, not just target shooting, you'll want to go with the slower twist. That way, you can push the balls fast enough to have enough "knock-down" power, with respectable accuracy IMHO.
 
dthunter said:
Thankyou for The responses guys!
I am a fairly meticulous type of shooter. I tend to push hard to maximise what ever I am shooting (OCD) lol!
My eyes are very good "still", but that could change at any time!(i'm 46).

It seems to me that if I want to get high performance (accuracy wise), I need to find the balance of where my chosen twist rate shines.
Faster 1:48", slower Velocities(round ball), and 1:60" for higher velocities (round ball).

My best bet is probably go to the 1:60" for "pure" round ball shooting.
Click to expand...

Then, as stated by others above, you want 1:60"+ to maximize the RB; 1:48" is a compromise for the longer/cylindrical Minies while maintaining "acceptable" performance with a RB.

Good luck & happy shootin`
 
It has been my experience that the 1:48 twist barrels tend to be fussy about their most accurate charge. I also found that if you change the granulation of the powder you also change the most accurate load but that does not mean that there is a most accurate velocity regardless of which powder you use to achieve it. In a 54 call my most accurate load with 3 F was 55 grains while with 2F it was 80 grains and a much higher velocity. The reason that I prefer a slow twist is that the accuracy remains about the same regardless of powder charge

cheers mooncoon
 
StoneHorse said:
Much in your post so I will just stick with one question. If you want to shoot RB's exclusively, go with a slow twist barrel 1:60"-1:68". The 1:48" is a compromise twist so its suppose to shoot both RB and conical bullets reasonably well. I have a Hawken 50 cal rifle with a 1:48" twist that I can't get to shoot worth a damn with sabots or conical bullets but I can get 'hunting' accuracy out to about 100 yards or so with RB's. Your mileage may vary.

Slow for RB's, fast for sabots/conical. Skip the 1:48" twist barrels IMHO.
Click to expand...

You didn't mention 1:66? Is there a reason?
 
Thanks guys!

I think I will go with a 1:60" twist when I find a rifle I like.
I would love to find a shorter carbine length rifle. Not sure where to look for one.
I would like to handle a few as well before I buy. Not many people in grande Prairie,ab. shoot traditional blackpowder.
 
Buy a new or used Lyman Great Plains rifle (or Browning Mountain Rifle) in 50 or 54 caliber and use it to learn all the intricacies of shooting PRB's then decide what you want - maybe a longrifle or Hawken style half stock either factory or custom built - or build it yourself. Most PRB's will shoot better than the nut-behind-the-butt: the open sights and old eyes determine the max effective range for most of us, not the power of the gun itself. As an example using my longrifle in 54 cal. Best target accuracy is with 60 gr FFFg and I can retain hunting accuracy to 90 gr FFFG. Rifling pitch is 1:66. Target accuracy means 5 shots in a 2" bullseye at 50 yds with 3 or more in one ragged hole and 5 shots grouping about 4" with 3 of them grouping about 2" at 100 yds off sandbags. Hunting accuracy is 5 shots in 4 - 5" circle at 100 yds off sandbags. You will have to experiment with ball diameter, patch thickness, different patch lubes and different powder charges to achieve or surpass that degree of accuracy but it can be done.
At 100 yds with 60 gr the point of impact is 5" low but with the same sight setting and 90 gr it is 4" high. As for energy, I have shot about a dozen deer from as far as 110 yds and even with my 45 cal, the balls pass clean through. I have yet to recover a ball. I am currently pursuing a moose with the 54 cal.

Good luck.
 
Here s my short barreled carbine in 58 cal

aal-136_1.jpg
 
I have had a Lyman Trade rifle in .54, a Lyman Deerstalker in .50, a Traditions Deerhunter in .50, and a Austin and Halleck flint in .50. They all shot well. All but the Austin & Halleck were 1 in 48" twist, the Austin was a 1 in 60". The Deerstalker was by far my favorite hunting rifle, but very fussy with loads. The Austin was by far the best bench rifle and would shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards all day. My eyes have got old and I can't line the sights up with the target in the early morning and evenings, so I got rid of them all. I now shoot an inline with a scope. It is not near as much fun, but gets the job done. Good luck with what you get.
 
You may want to look at Pedersoli. I have several and find them very accurate. They are traditional front stuffers but I have the lighter models. Makes it more fun to carry. Mine shoot both RB and sabots with acceptable accuracy.

You just have to take your time and hold on target longer after you pull the trigger.
 
If you can find a Thompson Pennsylvania Hunter it has a 1/66 twist and I used my brothers for several years deer hunting and for a PRB gun hitting a 2" target at 100yds benched was the norm and freehanding hitting a 6" pumpkin at 100 was easy. I cannot count the critters this gun put down but if I had to stop using my Encore it would be my first choice
 
There are many more good choices out there than bad it seems. This is multiplied to a much greater degree when one includes flintlock rifles.
IMO, for a beginner the flintlock should be left alone until one at least masters the caplock. There is much more that could go wrong with a flinter that could frustrate a new hunter at the wrong hunting moment. Of course though in some states, one does not have the luxury of differing choices for primitive hunting methods.

my opinion only
 
Brutus said:
There are many more good choices out there than bad it seems. This is multiplied to a much greater degree when one includes flintlock rifles.
IMO, for a beginner the flintlock should be left alone until one at least masters the caplock. There is much more that could go wrong with a flinter that could frustrate a new hunter at the wrong hunting moment. Of course though in some states, one does not have the luxury of differing choices for primitive hunting methods.


my opinion only
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I aggree! About the flintlocks. They are much more involved than I care to tackle right now. I myself have shot many biggame animals with the inlines, and just want to try something else new.

I have bow hunted with recurve, logbow, and compound, and enjoy the challenges each brings to the hunt.
I'm sure/expect that once I work with percussion muzzleloaders for a while, I will make the transition to flintlock as well. Its all fun, and I hope it always stays exciting! I love learning new shooting/hunting stuff!
 
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