Inconsistent Neck Tension?

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Northpoint

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I have found an accurate load, with acceptable velocity, for my semi auto .223. All my brass is fl resized on a single stage press in an RCBS FL Die. I used twice fired mil. brass to do load development, and am now using a batch of once fired Winchester .223 brass. While I "felt" very consistent neck tension when seating the bullets in the mil. brass, the Winchester brass seemed to have a very inconsistent feel. My loads using the Winchester brass do not match the accuracy I found using the mil. brass. Should I suspect inconsistent neck tension, and what can I do about it?
 
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there is a bunch of things that casue the inconsistent neck tension.. metallurgy if that specific piece, neck thickness variants, work hardened....

solutions - anneal brass, turn necks, get better brass.


that being said, re-chrono your loads in the WIN brass and see how they match the mil-brass... if your referring to .556 as mil-brass, while the outer dimensions are the same, the .556 has thicker walls, this means less internal capacity = higher pressures for same amount of powder when compared to the .223... you could be out of your accuracy node
 
Yes, mil spec brass with the cross in the circle. Anneal, not what I was hoping for. I was hoping for this winchester brass to be quality reloading brass. I tried federal brass, and the case head had ejector and extractor marks really early. That's why I was using the mil spec brass for load testing. The winchester brass shows no pressure signs. Okay, I will have to test upward again.
Thank you.
 
I'm talking quality brass , like lapua or Norma brass , rem , federal , win brass all fail way short.. Anneal, turn necks , volume /weight sort and you will be close to what top end brass is out of the box. Not to mention with proper care good brass lasts WAY longer as well
 
I'm not going to quality brass like that. It's a high volume gun. I watched a YouTube video on how to anneal with a torch, and it looks simple enough. I think I will anneal the batch, and see what happens. I'm only going to get 4 reloads out of it, so I'm not going to buy good brass for a 2 moa gun (or maybe it's a 1 moa, and I'm the other 1).
The crimp thing, well I have no idea what to think of that. I had a gun store owner tell me that in the 47 years he has been handloading, he has never once crimped a load. I also read in more than one reliable place that crimping does not add neck tension, it only prevents setback.
Thanks everyone.
 
Northpoint said:
I had a gun store owner tell me that in the 47 years he has been handloading, he has never once crimped a load.
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To me, that's like saying, my mom has been driving for 47 years. Want her to teach you how to drive?
That has no value. Is that person a reloading expert, does he have any valid litterature to back that up? Because my mom has been driving for longer than you and maybe she could teach you some?
You get the point?
My dad has been mowing grass for over 50 years, and I wouldnt need his advice on how to mow lawn.
 
Deleted.


Anyway, I will take his opinion into consideration, especially when it is not only his passion, but his industry too. I will listen when he speaks. He doesn't need literature, he offers experience, he doesn't have to read the internet like I do. As for "Internet Gurus", I am asking for opinions, but not for BS like that last post, getting bent when someone else's opinion is different from yours, I suspect.
I appreciate everyone's constructive input in this thread.
 
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My constructive input is that you should value facts over opinions.

Annealing is not going to solve the issue that you have with the different neck widths and therefore, ID after FL resizing with an RCBS die.
Crimping is not going to solve the issue that you have with improper neck tension.

Measure neck width of the mil brass vs win brass.
Measure inside diameter of the neck on mil and win brass.(after resizing, of course...)
by then you should have an answer.

report with the numbers once you have done that.

win brass neck is probably thinner, and rcbs die is not tightening the neck enough. that is my guess.

What can you do about it?
1- shoot only mil brass. toss the win brass. easy, simple, cheap. my last 1000 cases of 1f brass were like 950 mil, 50 win. who cares.
2- try another brand of FL die like LEE. (doesnt give me neck tension issues with any brand), so I use all brands, on the progressive press with lee dies.
3- use LEE collet neck resize die after your RCBS die on all the non mil brass to give proper neck tension.
4- if that still doesnt work, trash the brass because it's not worth your time.
5- if you believe it's worth your time, buy a set of redding competition dies and the proper bushings to get the good neck tension on your factory brass such as win. expect to spend 2-300$.
 
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Thank you.
Btw, your rant did deserve a reply. "I'd question anyone who says he's been reloading that long, and offers such cut and dry one sided advice", would have been a more appropriate comment. Save the life lesson for your kids.
I sincerely thank you for your very comprehensive reloading advice. This is my first loading where I've changed brass, and I didn't expect it to go sideways on brass selection alone. I will remove brass selection as a variable, and get a fcd. Will post my results.
 
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If it's high volume, not for high # of reloads, then why even bother annealing? You can get bulk .223 relatively cheap from sources like Budget Shooter (not sure where you are). You're right, I find crimping counter productive and unecessary outside of super heavy recoiling rifles, rough use environments (again my opinion from my own research and also doing it). There's a reason why target bullets and most modern bullet designs don't have cannelures for crimping. Most brass and FL dies have pretty high neck tension anyway. Ultimate had it right about the difference in 5.56 vs 223 and case thickness (less internal volume = higher pressure for same powder load). There are a lot of factors that can affect pressures. Sounds like you are on the right path. It's all about learning and sometimes it just takes a lot of testing things out ;) imo
 
I crimp my 223 bulk ammo, but I honestly do not have any valid reason to do so. Maybe they are more "rubust" to bullet displacement? No clue.
It gets done on my progressive press and it doesnt take more time.

I tested 308 ammo with 5 different powder loads, with or without a crimp with a target 308(all norma brass, same batch, same ID, same neck tension, all annealed, all trimmed to same length, all weighted powde charges on a precise scale), and did not notice any difference in accuracy.
Crimp didnt have any effect. Wasnt worse, wasnt better.

Solve the neck tension issue before you play with crimp. Crimp is not going to solve the neck tension issue.
Crimp is only applied to the top of the mouth with a lee FCD. Not solving the neck tension issue.

I usually don't really care about all that with the 223 AR ammo, I just run through the progressive press.

Bolt rifle ammo gets sorted by case brand. Don't mix different case brands and expect to get good results.

Dont go nuts with bulk ar ammo that you just expect to go boom. It will go boom.
I have reloaded 2000 223 rounds and they all went boom.

Only go as nuts as you need to go.
 
miykael said:
If it's high volume, not for high # of reloads, then why even bother annealing? You can get bulk .223 relatively cheap from sources like Budget Shooter (not sure where you are). You're right, I find crimping counter productive and unecessary outside of super heavy recoiling rifles, rough use environments (again my opinion from my own research and also doing it). There's a reason why target bullets and most modern bullet designs don't have cannelures for crimping. Most brass and FL dies have pretty high neck tension anyway. Ultimate had it right about the difference in 5.56 vs 223 and case thickness (less internal volume = higher pressure for same powder load). There are a lot of factors that can affect pressures. Sounds like you are on the right path. It's all about learning and sometimes it just takes a lot of testing things out ;) imo
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AE223 shoots really well in my rifle for what it is. I am loading Hornady 75 bthp, for an accuracy load. The volume will obviously be more than my hunting rifle loads, but is not going to be plinking ammo. I did not consider scrapping the whole batch of Winchester, but Kryogen has a very good point as to why I shouldn't rule that out.
 
Sorry, I meant bulk 223 components, not commercial ammo. Have you read: http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/ They have some great info on it.

After re-reading your post, just a couple points to address because you thought is that it's neck tension causing the problems in accuracy because it 'feels' different when you load winchester brass vs military (what brand?). Lake City is some of my favourite brass for .308 Win and I've got great results...but I did with Hornady Match and Lapua too (the standard). Commercial FL dies usually give you more neck tension than custom dies that have the necks honed to give you less (or bushings in neck dies).

  • what is your barrel twist and length?
  • are you shooting from a secure shooting rest or off a bipod - same for all tests?
  • what distance are you shooting?
  • what group sizes and what is the difference between the two types of brass?
  • what COAL are you loading too? I know 75 Amax's are too long for AR mags but bthp isnt? Seating depth plays a big factor in accuracy?
  • what powder are you using?
  • have you tried the CCI BR4 primers?

Winchester brass isn't as good as Lapua but it's not bad either (but unless you're competing single shot, Lapua through a semi...is expensive). Brass has a spring back effect (yours is 2x fired in 5.56 chamber), so the 5.56 brass might be a better fit in your 5.56 chamber than the .223 brass and might have slightly better concentricity as the bullet is lined up better? I think there are a lot of factors and not sure the neck tension is causing it (which should be higher in the military brass' thicker neck walls)? If the military brass shoots better, stick with it ;)



Northpoint said:
AE223 shoots really well in my rifle for what it is. I am loading Hornady 75 bthp, for an accuracy load. The volume will obviously be more than my hunting rifle loads, but is not going to be plinking ammo. I did not consider scrapping the whole batch of Winchester, but Kryogen has a very good point as to why I shouldn't rule that out.
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