What deer would you take ? Opinions please

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Adrian J Hare

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My wife asked me a question yesterday that I had a hard time to come up with an answer. Because I pass up all Doe and Fawns and hunt bucks only and have done so for so many years my answer was - I would prefer a dry doe, but i'm not sure I would think either at this time of year would still survive.


Her Question to another forum :

Well I have been pondering this for a while now, and am curious how other people feel.

I don't believe there is any right or wrong answer, but perhaps a different view on this would help me.

If a doe and a fawn come into your shooting range, and you have a doe tag, which would you shoot.... the doe or the fawn?? .... and what would be your reason for it??
 
Not worth shooting a fawn if you want food in the freezer. The years fawns are more then capable to survive assuming they are not killed by predators

Found this

It has been a few years since i took wild mammal ecology in college but I believe that after 8 weeks the fawn is completely independent. I think that I read some where that soem does will let the fawn nurse up to 12 weeks but as I said earlier that they are independent after 8 weeks.
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Surprisingly, at least one study found a higher long-term survival rate of orphaned button buck fawns than those not orphaned. Perhaps orphaned button buck fawns tend not to disperse from their birth range hence are not exposed to the higher mortality of rate of yearling bucks dispersing through areas they are not familiar with.
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Ponder this one..
I have heard, If that Doe is with fawn and is a button buck. If you harvest the Doe. That button buck will now stay in that area for the remainder of it's life. If you pass on both, the Doe will kick the button Buck out of the territory, so she won't breed with the button later in life. So if you have your own hunting area, you then created future Buck chances.
 
Doe, with the only exception being that the fawn was unusually small. I would likely pass all together in that scenario. (That being said, that very small fawn has a slim chance regardless of surviving the winter). Once this time of year rolls around for (late Oct and later) the fawns are very likely to survive without the (parent) doe. Once the does start breeding, the fawns get separated from the parent doe anyways, and in many if not most cases, the fawn will simply group together with another doe. The same happens if a doe is taken during hunting season, (or road killed, or taken from predators) the fawn will group up with other does and fawns. That's why later in Dec or later into winter it it not uncommon to see a doe with 2 or 3+ fawns with her, they are not very likely all her fawns.

Every deer hunter has their own beliefs or standards for hunting deer. This is my opinion, so take it as that. I think taking a doe, is a much better option to taking a smaller buck anytime, especially in areas like where I hunt in Ontario, where buck to doe ratio is low. Leaving bucks to breed as many does as possible in the first rut (early Nov) is very important. A doe that doesn't get bred while in heat, which is a short window of time, will not go into heat again for another month. If she isn't bred again during her second heat cycle, now your looking at her not getting bred until January. Gestation period doesn't change because a doe is bred late, so this means fawns are born a month, or two late. This results in a fawn that has little or no chance of surviving the following winter. Buck only hunters only worsen this buck:doe ratio, resulting in more and more 2nd and 3rd rut breeding, and more late small fawns the following year. I understand the guys hunting for a big buck, looking for a trophy, but if you are a meat hunting, I would take a nice tasty doe over a buck, simply because its a buck any day.

JimmyJames8, There has been several studies to conclude what you said is correct. It is said that if a doe raises a buck fawn, that in the following spring that doe will return to her home range, and she will then run off the yearly buck, which studies show that that buck will go miles away, completely out of area. This is natures way of helping to prevent inbreeding. In the situation where the doe is taking during hunting season, the buck fawn will return to its "home range" the following year, but will not be run off, therefor he will stay there and be another buck in your area. This helps keeping bucks in your area, and helps with the low buck:doe ratios.
 
Young deer will always heard up with the older Does, regardless if its mother is there, so its not like they've been orphaned and left to fend for themselves. Having that said, I choose not to shoot a doe with really young fawns. A year old deer survives just fine when grouped up with at least one mature female.
 
Fire306 said:
Doe, with the only exception being that the fawn was unusually small. I would likely pass all together in that scenario. (That being said, that very small fawn has a slim chance regardless of surviving the winter). Once this time of year rolls around for (late Oct and later) the fawns are very likely to survive without the (parent) doe. Once the does start breeding, the fawns get separated from the parent doe anyways, and in many if not most cases, the fawn will simply group together with another doe. The same happens if a doe is taken during hunting season, (or road killed, or taken from predators) the fawn will group up with other does and fawns. That's why later in Dec or later into winter it it not uncommon to see a doe with 2 or 3+ fawns with her, they are not very likely all her fawns.
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Except you neglect to mention that once the doe has been bred, her fawns will go back to her and not "hang out" for the rest of the winter with the other does. This is common with most animals by the way. Moose and elk do the same. The fawns which are hanging out with other does are the ones which lost their mother.

fiddler said:
Young deer will always heard up with the older Does, regardless if its mother is there, so its not like they've been orphaned and left to fend for themselves.
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BS
 
bearkilr said:
Except you neglect to mention that once the doe has been bred, her fawns will go back to her and not "hang out" for the rest of the winter with the other does. This is common with most animals by the way. Moose and elk do the same. The fawns which are hanging out with other does are the ones which lost their mother.
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Yes, you are correct, but they survive, that's the key point. Whether they are with their parent doe, or another doe, they survive, so shooting the doe isn't the equivalent of killing the doe and her fawn(s) as many buck only hunters preach.
 
I'd pass if sport hunting without a group. Take the doe if group hunting. Take the doe everytime if managing a large private tract.

It's a personal decision and not much personal satisfaction in it for me in any of the three ways.

I too have always buck hunted but this year I'm somewhat obligated as a new club member and having been asked to try for a tag, which I was successful at obtaining in the draw.

In the States we always had the young hunters harvest the necessary does and we had no draw system.
 
Fire306 said:
Yes, you are correct, but they survive, that's the key point. Whether they are with their parent doe, or another doe, they survive, so shooting the doe isn't the equivalent of killing the doe and her fawn(s) as many buck only hunters preach.
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Interesting study here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070530123749.htm

An intriguing study of mule deer and whitetail deer conducted by the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada and the University of Lethbridge, also in Canada, showed that both species responded to the recorded distress calls of fawns, similar to the responses elicited when coyotes attack fawns, with mule deer mothers responding to both whitetail and mule deer calls, even when their own fawn stood next to them. In contrast, the whitetail mothers responded only to their own species' call, and only when they could not see their own fawn.

I feed a bunch of whitetail oats during the winter months by my house. They're interesting to watch. You have to make small, individual piles as they don't like sharing. Does will share with their own fawns, but that's about it, anyone else comes along and they get kicked. That includes orphaned fawns.
 
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I don't know where are these "Studies" come from, but perhaps one person's observation and conclusion is not the same as the next. My family has farm property 90 minutes north of the city where we have a cabin. We can watch the same deer come around all year long for several seasons in a row. A mature doe who has a single year old fawn can magically have two with her after hunting season. The people that make these studies need to come around to the cabin and have coffee in the mornings to see that their conclusions are a bit off.

My personal opinion is to not shoot a doe with a really small or young fawn. There are plenty of deer to harvest without affecting the survival of the very young.
 
I would like to see some more scientific studies. I recall hearing of one on Bighorn sheep (which are a heard animal) where an orphaned lamb lost its status in the herd which would have really been its mothers status. It went right to the bottom of the "pecking order" and therefore had a lower chance of survival.

Just because an orphaned fawn is capable of feeding itself does not mean it is "independent" and totally capable of surviving. There are all kinds of things to be learned from the mother through out the winter. Finding good winter feed, finding shelter from storms, evading predators etc. I have always thought that an orphaned deer fawn may not be "bound to die" but may have less chance of making it through the winter.

I have passed up a doe with small fawns and I have shot does with one good sized fawn.
 
With moose, the strategy is to shoot the cow. That way you can go back the next day with a second tag and shoot the calf that is hanging out looking for its mother. :evil:

For deer this thread had a mix of emotional and herd management advice. Picking which criteria is most important to you will make deciding much easier. As far as the study of deer distress calls go, we took the alarm call of a chickadee from Newfoundland and played it in the mountain jungle of Belize and all the birds responded to it. Distress calls commonly cross species borders- think of how chilling the sound of a dying rabbit is to humans.
 
bearkilr said:
Interesting study here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070530123749.htm

An intriguing study of mule deer and whitetail deer conducted by the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada and the University of Lethbridge, also in Canada, showed that both species responded to the recorded distress calls of fawns, similar to the responses elicited when coyotes attack fawns, with mule deer mothers responding to both whitetail and mule deer calls, even when their own fawn stood next to them. In contrast, the whitetail mothers responded only to their own species' call, and only when they could not see their own fawn.

I feed a bunch of whitetail oats during the winter months by my house. They're interesting to watch. You have to make small, individual piles as they don't like sharing. Does will share with their own fawns, but that's about it, anyone else comes along and they get kicked. That includes orphaned fawns.
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Ive observed that as well, and it factors into my decision. The weirdest circumstance Ive seen when feeding in the winter was an enormous buck who would chase off all other deer except for an orphan fawn. Only saw it happen between those two deer, never before nor after.
 
I normally get 2 tags a year one antlered and one antlerless with the antlerless I normally go for a older doe with no fawns around im not out for trophy's im out for meat
 
Adrian J Hare said:
My wife asked me a question yesterday that I had a hard time to come up with an answer. Because I pass up all Doe and Fawns and hunt bucks only and have done so for so many years my answer was - I would prefer a dry doe, but i'm not sure I would think either at this time of year would still survive.


Her Question to another forum :

Well I have been pondering this for a while now, and am curious how other people feel.

I don't believe there is any right or wrong answer, but perhaps a different view on this would help me.

If a doe and a fawn come into your shooting range, and you have a doe tag, which would you shoot.... the doe or the fawn?? .... and what would be your reason for it??
Click to expand...


I believe I would shoot the fawn. Nicer meat, and in my opinion the doe would have a much better chance of surviveing the winter then the fawn anyway. Just my @ cents.

Dave.
 
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