Armalite or STAG

cr5 said:
Teach him to shoot right handed.
I'm not sure why people want 20 inch AR's, seems excessive to me and I don't think there are any advantages over an 18 inch. They aren't any more accurate and the velocity gains are so small past 18 inch that to me it isn't worth it.
To each their own though, that's just my preference. I like shorter barrels.
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No point teaching a child to shoot right handed if they are naturally left. You want it to be fun for them, not an awkward pain in the @ss.

The 5.56 round was designed for a 20" barrel. If using as any type of infantry rifle style or if you could hunt with an AR I'd go with 20". The velocity with the 223/5.56 has as much to do with the bullet's tumbling properties as out and out velocity. The bullet will yaw with sufficient velocity. The shorter the barrel the shorter the distance you have the necessary velocity. Plus with heavier than 62 grains it's an advantage. Doesn't matter for paper though.

Other than my AR10 style rifles, my AR rifles tend to be the police style carbine. So 16" barrels. I consider that the better compromise length over the 14.5".
 
Epoxy7 said:
No point teaching a child to shoot right handed if they are naturally left. You want it to be fun for them, not an awkward pain in the @ss.

The 5.56 round was designed for a 20" barrel. If using as any type of infantry rifle style or if you could hunt with an AR I'd go with 20". The velocity with the 223/5.56 has as much to do with the bullet's tumbling properties as out and out velocity. The bullet will yaw with sufficient velocity. The shorter the barrel the shorter the distance you have the necessary velocity. Plus with heavier than 62 grains it's an advantage. Doesn't matter for paper though.

Other than my AR10 style rifles, my AR rifles tend to be the police style carbine. So 16" barrels. I consider that the better compromise length over the 14.5".
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The minimum velocity threshold only applies to M193 and M855 ammo. Seeing as those who compete, hunt, or use their rifles for personal defense are not bound by the Hague Accord or Geneva Convention, the issue is of little consequence as a more appropriate bullet style may be selected. A 14.5" barrel will produce velocities that are 96% that of a 20" barrel. A 16" barrel with produce velocities that are 98% that of a 20" barrel. The loss is negligible, and 4 to 5.5 inches of barrel makes a big difference with regards to weight and balance as well as maneuverability.

TDC
 
TDC said:
The minimum velocity threshold only applies to M193 and M855 ammo. Seeing as those who compete, hunt, or use their rifles for personal defense are not bound by the Hague Accord or Geneva Convention, the issue is of little consequence as a more appropriate bullet style may be selected. A 14.5" barrel will produce velocities that are 96% that of a 20" barrel. A 16" barrel with produce velocities that are 98% that of a 20" barrel. The loss is negligible, and 4 to 5.5 inches of barrel makes a big difference with regards to weight and balance as well as maneuverability.

TDC
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Most of us shoot cheap ammo which is usually military surplus or based on those parameters for 223/5.56. A 14.5" barrel has always been considered a mediocre compromise. It's why police maintained 16" carbines. The C8 now sports a 16" barrel and the C7 has maintained the 20".

I own a number of AR rifles. Yes short barrels are handy, fast and balance better. But I don't own any shorties or 14.5" versions. I disagree and always have with short barrels on rifles. For 308 I don't go below 20". For AR15 I generally stay in the 16" range as the all rounder.

I'm not a fan of short barreled AR rifles. If you are then so be it. Not for me. Yes I've seen all these arguments before. Strange though how the old ideas keep coming back. Hmmm 16" carbines and 20" infantry rifles are coming back in favour. Who would have guessed?
 
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Epoxy7 said:
Most of us shoot cheap ammo which is usually military surplus or based on those parameters for 223/5.56. A 14.5" barrel has always been considered a mediocre compromise. It's why police maintained 16" carbines. The C8 now sports a 16" barrel and the C7 has maintained the 20".

I own a number of AR rifles. Yes short barrels are handy, fast and balance better. But I don't own any shorties or 14.5" versions. I disagree and always have with short barrels on rifles. For 308 I don't go below 20". For AR15 I generally stay in the 16" range as the all rounder.

I'm not a fan of short barreled AR rifles. If you are then so be it. Not for me. Yes I've seen all these arguments before. Strange though how the old ideas keep coming back. Hmmm 16" carbines and 20" infantry rifles are coming back in favour. Who would have guessed?
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LE in the US went with 16" carbines because anything less requires an NFA tax stamp. Our poor military is stuck with 20" guns due to budget restraints and less than educated procurement staff. The velocity difference between the 20/16/14.5 barrels is negligible and fact. There are plenty of short barrelled rifles in use by those who use them offensively or defensively.

You're right, most of us run surplus or what is marketed as "surplus" ammo. Aside from shooting paper where this debate is pointless, a solid well placed hit with any projectile on a living target is still effective. There is no guarantee regardless of bullet design/construction, to invest ones confidence in a specific projectile its performance as it relates to velocity and any accompanying barrel lengths/contours/twists, is foolish.

TDC
 
TDC said:
LE in the US went with 16" carbines because anything less requires an NFA tax stamp. Our poor military is stuck with 20" guns due to budget restraints and less than educated procurement staff. The velocity difference between the 20/16/14.5 barrels is negligible and fact. There are plenty of short barrelled rifles in use by those who use them offensively or defensively.

You're right, most of us run surplus or what is marketed as "surplus" ammo. Aside from shooting paper where this debate is pointless, a solid well placed hit with any projectile on a living target is still effective. There is no guarantee regardless of bullet design/construction, to invest ones confidence in a specific projectile its performance as it relates to velocity and any accompanying barrel lengths/contours/twists, is foolish.

TDC
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RCMP are starting to roll out their carbines which are C8SFW (Special forces weapon) with 16" barrel. No stamps. "The British military acquired a number of SFWs, primarily for their special forces, under the designation "L119A1". This version of the C8 is also in service with the Norwegian MJK and HJK". Again 16" version. No stamps required.

If you wanted lighter and handier don't mount a bunch of crap on your carbine. :D :popCorn:
 
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Epoxy7 said:
RCMP are starting to roll out their carbines which are C8SFW (Special forces weapon) with 16" barrel. No stamps. "The British military acquired a number of SFWs, primarily for their special forces, under the designation "L119A1". This version of the C8 is also in service with the Norwegian MJK and HJK". Again 16" version. No stamps required.

If you wanted lighter and handier don't mount a bunch of crap on your carbine. :D :popCorn:
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I'm aware of who is running and or procuring the "C8 SFW" which is a Canadian designation. I have nothing against a 16" carbine, my point is, the 20" is a dead horse and shorter than 16" are far from useless as many proclaim.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider crap hanging from a carbine?

TDC
 
TDC said:
How do you identify a threat/target if you can't see it?

TDC
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Police carry a small flashlight with them. You can hold it if needed. It doesn't need to be attached to the rifle, the same way it doesn't need to be attached to a pistol to be used. Plus you want to be very careful with the light. Most people not on the same side don't use lights. You walking in with lights etc makes you an easy target. Even going in with it off then flashing it on to check give you away. While you light up to identify they just shoot your light. When going in a non barricaded area to clear, you go quick and fast. You can also in many cases use other lighting tricks. I'm not going to get into those here, but they have proved more effective and less dangerous than turning on your light. If barricaded and in entry teams then you're going in slow and light etc is fine as you have extra eyes/firepower. Plus generally upgraded armor. Flashbangs, shock/awe etc.

Unless you specialize in urban/residential clearing then 99 percent of the time that light is just dead weight if attached to your rifle. Do you use it in the day if outside? In fields, from outside a house covering the perimeter? At the range? If infantry moving in the day? I'm pretty sure if you were regular infantry and in position that if you turned on that light whether on purpose or by accident that your own guys would want to shoot you. Again if specialized for house/urban clearing then sure. But for regular duty. I'll stick to the hand held light. I can use it with or without anything.

One other point. On the range you aren't aiming that carbine, or pistol at a target for sometimes hours. Having had to have my pistol aimed at a front door for well over an hour with a barricaded suspect I was very thankful for 1) The car side mirror I used as support, 2) not having a lot of weight up front as it's a short pistol. The ERT guy was having to hold his AR unsupported. I noticed he was getting tired. I don't blame him. That stuff adds up. You know it wasn't because the guy was out of shape. Physics dictates the lever effect. The more crud up front the heavier it is. Even more so than the actual weight.

Again for specialized I can see it. But for 99 percent you don't need it. You can always attach one later for specialized use.
 
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Epoxy7 said:
Police carry a small flashlight with them. You can hold it if needed. It doesn't need to be attached to the rifle, the same way it doesn't need to be attached to a pistol to be used. Plus you want to be very careful with the light. Most people not on the same side don't use lights. You walking in with lights etc makes you an easy target. Even going in with it off then flashing it on to check give you away. While you light up to identify they just shoot your light. When going in a non barricaded area to clear, you go quick and fast. You can also in many cases use other lighting tricks. I'm not going to get into those here, but they have proved more effective and less dangerous than turning on your light. If barricaded and in entry teams then you're going in slow and light etc is fine as you have extra eyes/firepower. Plus generally upgraded armor. Flashbangs, shock/awe etc.

Unless you specialize in urban/residential clearing then 99 percent of the time that light is just dead weight if attached to your rifle. Do you use it in the day if outside? In fields, from outside a house covering the perimeter? At the range? If infantry moving in the day? I'm pretty sure if you were regular infantry and in position that if you turned on that light whether on purpose or by accident that your own guys would want to shoot you. Again if specialized for house/urban clearing then sure. But for regular duty. I'll stick to the hand held light. I can use it with or without anything.

One other point. On the range you aren't aiming that carbine, or pistol at a target for sometimes hours. Having had to have my pistol aimed at a front door for well over an hour with a barricaded suspect I was very thankful for 1) The car side mirror I used as support, 2) not having a lot of weight up front as it's a short pistol. The ERT guy was having to hold his AR unsupported. I noticed he was getting tired. I don't blame him. That stuff adds up. You know it wasn't because the guy was out of shape. Physics dictates the lever effect. The more crud up front the heavier it is. Even more so than the actual weight.

Again for specialized I can see it. But for 99 percent you don't need it. You can always attach one later for specialized use.
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Sorry, but having done low light training, a light is an absolute necessity. The myths you perpetuate are just that, myths. Proper use of a white light whether it be mounted or not will result in near zero opportunity for the opposition to engage. If you're not using cover or concealment while using your light(short of an entry team) you're doing it wrong. Room clearing is not a race, and if you can't see you can't move. Its odd how many LE and nearly all SF MIL units run lights on their guns. A handheld light doesn't work with a long gun and is a less than ideal method with a handgun, its a bad idea. Quality lights allow for lockout or some other means of preventing a light ND. With a handheld light, how do you propose one bring a long gun to action? Lets go with running a handgun with a handheld, is a one handed grip more or less stable than two? How do you work a door and the light and the gun at the same time? Perhaps your support side is busy with a child?

As for aiming in for extended periods of time. What the f**k are you doing? If you have time to fatigue you have time to find a better position or take a break. A fatigued officer is an ineffective officer. Regardless, that's a very specific situation which I and most others will likely never find ourselves in, so the issue of position fatigue isn't one.

I use my light like anyone else would, to identify threats/targets. It comes in handy during low light bush walking/shooting as well as when inspecting holes, caves and the like. Having the light onboard the rifle or pistol and available without delay is more of a benefit than a hinderance. The two most recommended accessories for a defensive long gun is a sling and a light, and for good reason.


TDC
 
TDC,

I've taken the courses, requalified anually including low light simunitions training and more importantly been there done that. I've cleared many a building in low to no light situation with fireball. Even armed standoffs with Fireball. I don't recall you being there. Your arguments are class room never done it or been there arguments.

Again if ERT or specializing in that then sure. But for regular guy not so much. The light is like a bayonet. It doesn't need to be there all the time and the situations you'll use it aren't as much as you'd think.

I'm happy to hear you use your light all the time and take cover. Hopefully you never learn the difference between Interior building cover and concealment. Relying on your light which kills night vision and gives you away along with trying to find cover in gyprock buildings sounds like a rooky. That and having to upgrade everything to the best kit instead of getting good with the basics.

One other tip. When using the light to identify (in my case not fixed to a firearm), make sure your partner has theirs off. Also make sure you aren't with anyone that doesn't understand what happens if they use their light and it illuminates you.

If tracking with a police dog youblearn quickly not to rely on the light. You're going fast and the dog handler won't appreciate you screwing up their night vision or giving them away. The light has it's place. Don't get me wrong. But it's use is nowhere near as much as many think. Nor does it have to fixed to a firearm. In most cases that flashlight on the end of the carbine is dead weight. If required or specializing then OK. But to put gear on your rifle all the time when you're not likely to use it doesn't make sense to me. Like the bayonet I'd use it if called for but I'm not going to have it there all the time.

One last point. Sounds like the course you took was for ERT, special ops wannabees. If there's a known armed suspect those guys handle it. Their gear, weapons etc are different. For the General duty member the tactics are a bit different. Much I'm sure as infantry gear and tactics aren't the same as JTF2 etc.

Oh and I still like the 20" AR rifles as well. Wonder why the Israelis went 18" with the Tavor? If 14.5 is just as good they could have had a super short carbine. Seems infantry still like their rifles too.
 
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