Berger Bullets on Game(Pics up on last post)

So the well established argument of Fast expanding ( or even fragmenting bullets ) vs deep penetrating controlled expansion bullets raises its head yet gain. My take after experiencing the results of the Berger is that they seem to be at the extreme end of one side of the argument. My question is what makes of bullets are out there that provide the best of both worlds ? If such a thing exists.

I was thinking something like good old interloks but my experience with those is not good and I won't touch them again. Thirty years ago I used Speer mag tips and those were awesome however, I've shot a few at the range in recent years and what they are making now just doesn't shoot with the accuracy I like, I guess that is why I went with the Bergers.

Any and all suggestion welcome as I love to tinker with new loads and bullets.
 
powdergun said:
So the well established argument of Fast expanding ( or even fragmenting bullets ) vs deep penetrating controlled expansion bullets raises its head yet gain. My take after experiencing the results of the Berger is that they seem to be at the extreme end of one side of the argument. My question is what makes of bullets are out there that provide the best of both worlds ? If such a thing exists.

I was thinking something like good old interloks but my experience with those is not good and I won't touch them again. Thirty years ago I used Speer mag tips and those were awesome however, I've shot a few at the range in recent years and what they are making now just doesn't shoot with the accuracy I like, I guess that is why I went with the Bergers.

Any and all suggestion welcome as I love to tinker with new loads and bullets.
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Well seeing as how you asked, there is one bullet for sure that does everything very well and it's been around a long time................does the term Nosler Partition ring a bell? My son and I have also had great success and zero failures with Nosler accubonds, however they will fragment at high velocity and point blank impact ranges. They do however seem to still give decent penetration before fragmenting and we have never lost or even had to follow an animal shot with either of these bullets.
I have always gotten good to excellent accuracy from Parts and usually excellent accuracy with ABs, with only a couple exceptions. My 375 H&H (the TRUE KING) loves 270 gn TSXs which has no down side and my 340 Wby does NOT like 225 ABs.
I use ABs or Parts in virtually all my hunting rifles from 25 cal to 35 cal.............that way I never have to worry or wonder what might happen, I already know......dead critter !!
 
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powdergun said:
So the well established argument of Fast expanding ( or even fragmenting bullets ) vs deep penetrating controlled expansion bullets raises its head yet gain. My take after experiencing the results of the Berger is that they seem to be at the extreme end of one side of the argument. My question is what makes of bullets are out there that provide the best of both worlds ? If such a thing exists.

I was thinking something like good old interloks but my experience with those is not good and I won't touch them again. Thirty years ago I used Speer mag tips and those were awesome however, I've shot a few at the range in recent years and what they are making now just doesn't shoot with the accuracy I like, I guess that is why I went with the Bergers.

Any and all suggestion welcome as I love to tinker with new loads and bullets.
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I personally like Barnes bullets, either the TSX or TTSX, as they shoot well out of my guns, always penetrate adequately and don't do as much meat damage as other more explosive bullets. I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that one can go to lighter weights with the mono metal bullets, I prefer to use heavier ones to keep energy figures up, rather than worry about a few inches of trajectory.

Some claim that they act like a solid on long range shots, however that hasn't been my experience, but I also have no intention of shooting at game 600 yards or more away. Regardless, I'd rather have too much penetration at any range than have the scenario you encountered. A solid through the lungs will kill any animal, whereas a bullet that explodes on the shoulder results in a wound.
If your gun doesn't like Barnes, try the Nosler Partition/A-Frame and others. They seem to be the best of both worlds, expansion and penetration.
 
Here are the pics ( sorry for the crappy quality) It was a front quartering shot. The bullet clipped the front shoulder blade as it angled into the cavity. Looks like it blew up pretty good before entering the cavity. Organ damage was sufficient but not major. Perhaps the results would be different had it not clipped the shoulder blade but the jury is still out for me on the future use of these bullets. Meat damage seems to be one front shoulder gone but the tenderloins are good:) unless I find lead and copper shrapnel in them:(




 
does the term Nosler Partition ring a bell?
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Beat me to it. The best compromise between something that kills quickly by blowing up and one that penetrates practically no matter what could be the Nosler which usually does both on every shot. Large animal shooters that have the personal philosophy that a bullet should open wide and stay together no matter what will love the A-Frames and Woodleighs. Those that value penetration over frontal area will gravitate to TSXs.
 
I will now add the caveat that my advice was based on the assumption of shooting NA ungulates. The minute we leave this continent the quarry must be more clearly defined for bullet advice to be meaningful. I too have used A-frames, Woodleighs, C+C solids and homogenous solids, but not on NA game.
 
Huh? 2x expansion is pretty well the norm
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Yes, and since parts of the mushroom are missing the frontal area is reduced. Drive them a little harder and they start getting smaller as the petals fold back farther, and they get real small when the petals tear right off. Penetrating mothers though.

2 X expansion isn't hard to get with many bullets, and near 100 weight retention can had with many of the bonded core bullets. When bullets of the same caliber, same weight, same weight retention, same velocity, and same expanded diameter penetrate to different depths there isn't left besides frontal area to look at.
 
If match-grade accuracy and big expansion in a game bullet is the question, Sierra Game King is the answer. Proven thousands of times, no need to guess.

Their HPBT Game King's are particularly good, and in a hunting rifle, I suspect would shoot every bit as well as the Match King.
 
Dogleg said:
Take a 1" diameter broad-head and a 1" diameter bird blunt. Which penetrates better? Take your time.
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Somebody making a razor-sharp bullet these days? I suspect you are trying to make a point but I can't for the life of me figure out what that example has to do with it.
 
Dogleg said:
Equal diameter, different frontal areas. Try to keep up. You can sharpen the blunt to a needle point if you want.
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You may have a point if they each expanded but they don't....bullets do. They do so at different rates due to design. This rate of expansion can play a huge role in penetration. It's pretty easy to get vastly different amounts of penetration from the same weight and caliber of bullet driven at the same speed with the same weight retention and frontal area based on the rate of expansion. That why your assumption and previous example are both flawed....neither factors in the rate of expansion. It's a very important factor in the calculation and the crux of bullet design these days. A bullet that expands earlier upon penetration is not going to penetrate as much as one that has a more delayed expansion.....simple physics. Start running some bullets into ballistic gel and your eyes will get real open.....real fast. Sure frontal area plays a role in penetration but with an expanding projectile it's but one part of a complex equation.
 
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Looks like most 150g 7mag holes at 80 yards to me only difference is if you were shooting a Partition, Accubond, TSX, A Frame you would have seen an exit hole on the ribs.
Either way that front shoulder would have been wasted with any of the bullets, 3000fps impacts on bone do that.
 
sheephunter said:
TSX rarely sheds petals...

Sheep, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. My last foray to RSA and Congo, as well as the previous one to Zambia were done exclusively with .375 H&H loaded with 270 gn TSX. We recovered a bunch of bullets and almost every one had shed petals and 3 of them had shed all 4 petals......the lion one, the bongo one and one of the giraffe shots. All three hit heavy bone but most assuredly shed all four petals and turned into slightly over caliber solids. My experience is that they almost always shed one or more petals unless only small bone and soft tissue is encountered. The impact ranges varied from 40 mtrs to 260 mtrs as well, so it wasn't just because it was point blank impact velocity.
Don't get me wrong, I still use this load and bullet for heavy game and it is a killing combo, but I can't say my experience falls in line with your opening statement at all, quite the opposite actually.
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You may have a point if they each expanded but they don't....bullets do.
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Not all bullets expand; think about solids for a second. Not by coincidence they are the ultimate in penetration.

Start running some bullets into ballistic gel and your eyes will get real open.....real fast
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I prefer to run several hundred into living breathing test media. That way I can just jump ahead to what they actually did, instead of what they might do based on shooting Jello. It saves a step.
 
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Kelly Timoffee said:
Didn't know modern game animals were oblivious to boiler room shots, who would have known???
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I must have missed the memo too. Shooting edible animals through the shoulders is for people who have lots of tags and can afford to waste meat. In other words, slobs. Every animal I've shot in North America has been behind the shoulders, or quartering on. The exception was the whitetail doe I shot in Saskatchewan a few years ago. Hit it through the shoulder with a 140gr Ballistic Tip out of a 7mm Wby at around 225 yards. Hellacious mess and lost a bunch of tasty meat. I'll never deliberately do it again.
 
BigUglyMan said:
I must have missed the memo too. Shooting edible animals through the shoulders is for people who have lots of tags and can afford to waste meat. In other words, slobs. Every animal I've shot in North America has been behind the shoulders, or quartering on. The exception was the whitetail doe I shot in Saskatchewan a few years ago. Hit it through the shoulder with a 140gr Ballistic Tip out of a 7mm Wby at around 225 yards. Hellacious mess and lost a bunch of tasty meat. I'll never deliberately do it again.
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I never said they were oblivious. I just said shoulder shots were better. A bit of bruising on the shoulder is not a "hellacious mess" It is a bit of bruising on the substandard cuts. 2 less smokies I guess. I did not advocate shooting them in the ass.

Back to the subject at hand. Bergers. I been shooting VLD Hunting 185s from a .300WBY for a while now. In all honesty when I run out of them (about 120 left to go) Im probably gonna go back to partitions or give ballistic silvertuips a try. I have shot 3 Yukon Alaska Moose, 2 Bison a grizz and a pile of caribou with the VLDs. They have never went more than about 3 steps and I got good penetration on both bison however they were both shot in september so no ice and snow and not in full winter hair yet. I find them very finicky to build an accurate load for. They are cheap I will give them that. The one that someone earlier said blew up on a deers shoulder I suspect was caused by junk in the little hole. A buddy had that happen on a caribou and when he got looking at the rounds in his coat he noticed several had the hole full of ??? and attributed it to that.
 

I want nothing to do with Bergers/Burgers period.My son lost a WT doe hit square in the shoulder under 200 yards off the b-ipod as we speculate it exploded only making a surface wound.This was last year. Now we are using Nosler partitions and Accubonds.The 160gr Accubonds in 7mm Rem mag were complete pass throughs on a big cow moose yesterday.Like a bullet should, not confetti.Harold
 
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I guess if you are a poor shot then expanding the target into the shoulder allows you more justification when you miss the vitals. ;)

I feel it is a miss when I happen to take out a shoulder and give myself hell when I do it.

BigUglyMan said:
I must have missed the memo too. Shooting edible animals through the shoulders is for people who have lots of tags and can afford to waste meat. In other words, slobs. Every animal I've shot in North America has been behind the shoulders, or quartering on. The exception was the whitetail doe I shot in Saskatchewan a few years ago. Hit it through the shoulder with a 140gr Ballistic Tip out of a 7mm Wby at around 225 yards. Hellacious mess and lost a bunch of tasty meat. I'll never deliberately do it again.
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Every animal I've shot in North America has been behind the shoulders, or quartering on.
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I never intentionally target the shoulders, unless the shot angle requires the bullet to go through the shoulder to reach the vitals, or the bullet strikes the far shoulder, after passing through the vitals. I find that I am able to obtain quick ,clean, kills, by placing the bullet behind the shoulders, so why damage more meat, by purposely choosing to hit a shoulder? As to Berger bullets, I will leave them to the target shooters, and varmint shooters.
 
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