"...UNIMAT..." Yep. Neat idea, but they're too light. All of 'em are trying to replicate the machines seen on warships. None of 'em do it well. Knew a guy, a master machinist, who had a mill attachment for a drill press. No idea what brand, but Joe wouldn't have had it if it didn't work.
Small multi purpose machine?
- Thread starter Hoplight
- Start date
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I owned one and in a word...waste of money, unless you are only going to cut wood or aluminum hobby items that don't require any degree of precision.
Maximat oh yeah!!!!!!!!!! That would be a great little machine, miles ahead of the Chicom stuff. It has it's limits with the through hole in the spindle and a rather small work holding area on cross slide/ table but very adequate. I'd love to have one as a another machine. The books mentioned prior should be your first thoughts. They will give a lot of information to prioritize your needs and wants. Good information on here, just have to ask, some one's been there, done that sort of situation.
I still have a Unimat. It is at least 45 years old though.
It has a cast iron bed, unlike the newer models and maintains very good accuracy throughout most projects I do on it, as long as I don't push it's capabilities.
When push comes to shove, it's a modelers lathe. It will do all sorts of things that the new ones won't do. It can be taken apart and reassembled as a hand held drill (Safety didn't seem to be a concern when it was made), milling machine, drill press, and of course a lathe.
It is a precision made product, capable of very precise work. The biggest problem is that people try to push it past its limitations. It has one minor foible. Instead of change gears, it has drive belts. These can be interchanged easily but the drive belts are tough to find. They wear quite rapidly and after about 6-8 hours of use, they start to slip.
Just to put things into perspective, this early Unimat has a threading attachment as well. It is made on a heavy cast iron frame that is true across the ways. It is made to do anything it's larger cousins will do but on a much smaller scale. The later machines are made up on iron round stock for a base. Not nearly as precise.
I mostly use mine for making up small screws, turning down rims or necks on cases etc. It is especially useful when making up bits out of plastic, brass or aluminum.
It has a cast iron bed, unlike the newer models and maintains very good accuracy throughout most projects I do on it, as long as I don't push it's capabilities.
When push comes to shove, it's a modelers lathe. It will do all sorts of things that the new ones won't do. It can be taken apart and reassembled as a hand held drill (Safety didn't seem to be a concern when it was made), milling machine, drill press, and of course a lathe.
It is a precision made product, capable of very precise work. The biggest problem is that people try to push it past its limitations. It has one minor foible. Instead of change gears, it has drive belts. These can be interchanged easily but the drive belts are tough to find. They wear quite rapidly and after about 6-8 hours of use, they start to slip.
Just to put things into perspective, this early Unimat has a threading attachment as well. It is made on a heavy cast iron frame that is true across the ways. It is made to do anything it's larger cousins will do but on a much smaller scale. The later machines are made up on iron round stock for a base. Not nearly as precise.
I mostly use mine for making up small screws, turning down rims or necks on cases etc. It is especially useful when making up bits out of plastic, brass or aluminum.
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The Emco Maximat were better than average quality, and higher than average price too, in their time. The mill that could be got attached to one, was essentailly the same mill head as used on their FB2 milling machine. Light duty, but good quality!
I have a Emco Super 11, a Myford Super 7, a Colchester 2500, and a WW Pattern Watchmakers lathe with a pretty good pile of accessories for each.
Tooling up a machine tool can cost as much or more than the machine, depending upon what you actually wish to be able to accomplish. But a lathe will be useful with the lowest investment, as far as the machine tools goes. A couple tool holders, some cutter bits or HSS blanks, and you can make parts.
I have one sort of nice thing to say in somewhat favor of the 3-in-1 tools. They typically have a high spindle speed, and a high center height, and if you are interested in trying metal spinning, they make pretty good lathe for that, as the tall spindle height gives a bunch more room between the spindle and bed to work with a larger sheet of material.
Cheers
Trev
I have a Emco Super 11, a Myford Super 7, a Colchester 2500, and a WW Pattern Watchmakers lathe with a pretty good pile of accessories for each.
Tooling up a machine tool can cost as much or more than the machine, depending upon what you actually wish to be able to accomplish. But a lathe will be useful with the lowest investment, as far as the machine tools goes. A couple tool holders, some cutter bits or HSS blanks, and you can make parts.
I have one sort of nice thing to say in somewhat favor of the 3-in-1 tools. They typically have a high spindle speed, and a high center height, and if you are interested in trying metal spinning, they make pretty good lathe for that, as the tall spindle height gives a bunch more room between the spindle and bed to work with a larger sheet of material.
Cheers
Trev
If you didn't know of it already, the www.lathes.co.uk site is an amazing reference tool for discovering the pro's and con's, strengths and weaknesses of various small lathes (essentially it covers the smaller rather than the industrial larger lathes) that are out there, or when you see a name on Kijiji or Craigslist that you do not recognize.
Ferinstance, you can find out that a Hercus is essentially a South Bend, except without the name brand recognition.
Cheers
Trev
Ferinstance, you can find out that a Hercus is essentially a South Bend, except without the name brand recognition.
Cheers
Trev
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
This might be an advantage for spinning but I considered it a major drawback to turning. The lack of rigidity and hieght of the spindle/tail stock from the carriage allowed for considerable twist of the machine and "flex" between cutter and workpiece.
Another reference idea for the beginning hobby machinist are a couple of magazines i used to buy "Home Shop Machinist" and 'Hobby Engineer". the first is a US puplication, the second a British. Some of the stuff built with very small equipment by those guys will boggle your mind.
I totally agree. But that does not take away from the idea that it was their superior talents and background that allowed them to work around the limitations to achieve their success. As a general rule newbies to machining would simply not be able to get there from here if faced with the limitations of a small or flexible machine.
I draw your attention to the legions of Myford "fixes" and workarounds to deal with what I learned first hand is a rather chattery machine with lots of built in limitations. They LOOK like a million dollars. But they demand the highest of skills and background to tune and maintain the machine and to deal with the shortcomings of a far too small head stock shaft diameter.
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I can speak from experience the Smithy machines are pretty rough. Their tolerances aren't great to begin with and they get worse very quickly. You will soon find you spend more time maintaining them (granted all machines require some amount of maintenance) then you will working on them.
As everyone else has already said get yourself a good solid lathe, even just a small benchtop to start, and then expand on it or invest in other machines later on. The question is do you want to invest in a 3-in-1 which will be done in as little as a year with heavy use (Yes I have seen them go that fast) or invest in a good lathe that, if oiled and maintained, could last a lifetime?
As everyone else has already said get yourself a good solid lathe, even just a small benchtop to start, and then expand on it or invest in other machines later on. The question is do you want to invest in a 3-in-1 which will be done in as little as a year with heavy use (Yes I have seen them go that fast) or invest in a good lathe that, if oiled and maintained, could last a lifetime?
Yup no sense messing around ,if I came across one of the older quality 3 in 1 machines as discussed a few pages ago I'd be interested but it's unlikely so looking for a bench top unit with lots of bits! While I've got you guys here does anyone have any multi purpose tools they do have faith in ? When I was a fabricator we used to use " iron workers" with punches/ brakes/ shears/ notchers, they worked great and only maybe 5 ' long ,however they were 3 phase And a bit bigger than ideal for my small shop. Thanks again it's great to have knowledgable guys to learn from.
so looking for a bench top unit with lots of bits! While I've got you guys here does anyone have any multi purpose tools they do have faith in ? When I was a fabricator we used to use " iron workers" with punches/ brakes/ shears/ notchers, they worked great and only maybe 5 ' long ,however they were 3 phase And a bit bigger than ideal for my small shop. Thanks again it's great to have knowledgable guys to learn from.On the first, yeah, indeed. But spinning needs different things than turning, and the 3-in-1's are sorta an OK start if (IF!) you wanted to do metal spinning.
Yeah Home Shop Machinist, Home Shop Machinist's Workshop, Model Engineer,(which I think is what you mean by Hobby Engineer) Model Engineer's Workshop, Engineering in Miniature, Live Steam, and a couple others, like Shed magazine from New Zealand and a couple from Australia (Australian Model Engineer, IIRC) and Germany (something German I cannot reasonably spell right now from memory, but i have a collection of back issues ) , all have great info in them.
Cheers
Trev
Hoplight, if you're looking at much of this metal working stuff you will quickly want to buy a basic little 4x6" metal bandsaw. It's not the machine that the "iron worker" is by any stretch. But it sure beats cutting by hand ! ! ! ! !
A page or two back Trev mentioned the limitations of the round column mill/drills. I nodded my head in agreement with every point since I've got one which is mid size, uses MT3 tooling, tolerates the V belt drive and generally isn't as nice by a long shot as a machine with a proper dovetail Z axis bed. Still for the $400 I paid for it along with a bunch of accessories it's certainly done well for me. So while I totally agree that you do NOT want to buy one of these new if you should trip over a deal on a used one with tooling I would not turn up my nose at it. For occasional hobby use they are not all that bad and can do some pretty good work.
For a lathe I'm a big supporter of the 12 to 14 inch swing by 36 inch bed models. But these are simply NOT table top options.... unless you lean towards making your tables from concrete blocks... But beginning a few years back I started to see the 10"x22" table top lathes showing up such as this one from Grizzly;
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602
With the 1" spindle bore it will accommodate most barrels but obviously not the larger diameter bull barrels. On the other hand it's not a long enough gap between centers to hold it over the bed either. So it IS limited and if you aspire to produce big heavy barrel class F rifles then you will NEED the larger machines. But for the rest of the hobby gunsmith work you will do a lathe of this sort will do just dandy.
Truth be told even though I really love my 12x36 I could likely do 95% or more of the jobs I've ever done in my own lathe on one of these 10x22 machines and still have room left over.
If and when you do buy a lathe if it is a table top version I highly recommend that you build a table that is solid and rigid enough to hold up a small truck and not groan. An overly strong AND STABLE table is an iron clad requirement to achieve an accurate and consistent lathe setup. I'd even go as far as to suggest a welded metal stand made from something like 3 inch thick wall legs with heavy gauge 4 or even 6 inch U channel metal for the top frame. Then 5/8 threaded studs welded to the frame so the lathe sits on top and bottom nuts to allow for adjusting for level and true. True being the target. "Level" is simply the easiest way to get to "true". And it would not at all be overkill to put plates on the floor ends of the legs and lag bolt them to the floor using shims to even up the stance as needed. A solid and rigid mount for any metal working tools goes a long way to making the machines perform a lot better. It soaks up vibration that would otherwise could result in a bad chatter, reduces machine twist that results in the cutter not cutting to the intended size, ensures true size cuts when doing long axial cuts and basically makes the operator smile a lot more.
Height is important as well. You do NOT want to have the machine too low and end up bending over to see what you're doing. When I set up my own lathe pretty soon here I'm planning on positioning it so that the headstock axis is sitting at elbow height or perhaps just an inch or so lower. Any lower than that and I end up leaning over the machine too much and get a sore back. Same with the table of the mill. I'm going to set it so that it's up around 40 inches high so that by the time I put the milling vise on the bed I'm able to work at a reasonably comfortable stance.
A page or two back Trev mentioned the limitations of the round column mill/drills. I nodded my head in agreement with every point since I've got one which is mid size, uses MT3 tooling, tolerates the V belt drive and generally isn't as nice by a long shot as a machine with a proper dovetail Z axis bed. Still for the $400 I paid for it along with a bunch of accessories it's certainly done well for me. So while I totally agree that you do NOT want to buy one of these new if you should trip over a deal on a used one with tooling I would not turn up my nose at it. For occasional hobby use they are not all that bad and can do some pretty good work.
For a lathe I'm a big supporter of the 12 to 14 inch swing by 36 inch bed models. But these are simply NOT table top options.... unless you lean towards making your tables from concrete blocks...
But beginning a few years back I started to see the 10"x22" table top lathes showing up such as this one from Grizzly;http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602
With the 1" spindle bore it will accommodate most barrels but obviously not the larger diameter bull barrels. On the other hand it's not a long enough gap between centers to hold it over the bed either. So it IS limited and if you aspire to produce big heavy barrel class F rifles then you will NEED the larger machines. But for the rest of the hobby gunsmith work you will do a lathe of this sort will do just dandy.
Truth be told even though I really love my 12x36 I could likely do 95% or more of the jobs I've ever done in my own lathe on one of these 10x22 machines and still have room left over.
If and when you do buy a lathe if it is a table top version I highly recommend that you build a table that is solid and rigid enough to hold up a small truck and not groan. An overly strong AND STABLE table is an iron clad requirement to achieve an accurate and consistent lathe setup. I'd even go as far as to suggest a welded metal stand made from something like 3 inch thick wall legs with heavy gauge 4 or even 6 inch U channel metal for the top frame. Then 5/8 threaded studs welded to the frame so the lathe sits on top and bottom nuts to allow for adjusting for level and true. True being the target. "Level" is simply the easiest way to get to "true". And it would not at all be overkill to put plates on the floor ends of the legs and lag bolt them to the floor using shims to even up the stance as needed. A solid and rigid mount for any metal working tools goes a long way to making the machines perform a lot better. It soaks up vibration that would otherwise could result in a bad chatter, reduces machine twist that results in the cutter not cutting to the intended size, ensures true size cuts when doing long axial cuts and basically makes the operator smile a lot more.
Height is important as well. You do NOT want to have the machine too low and end up bending over to see what you're doing. When I set up my own lathe pretty soon here I'm planning on positioning it so that the headstock axis is sitting at elbow height or perhaps just an inch or so lower. Any lower than that and I end up leaning over the machine too much and get a sore back. Same with the table of the mill. I'm going to set it so that it's up around 40 inches high so that by the time I put the milling vise on the bed I'm able to work at a reasonably comfortable stance.
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Yeah, for their supposed failures, the round column mills are a pretty decent tool, and not to be sniffed at if you don't already have a better one.
90 or more percent of the jobs a fella is going to do do not rely upon the head indexing when the head is moved up or down the column. Essentially, those jobs will be about accurately laying out ones scribed lines, and cutting to them, which is a whole different world from a machinist that is busy making parts by reading out his coordinates on a Digital Readout.
Once you learn how to dial in off a feature using an indicator, that problem pretty much goes away.
Would it be better if it stayed in index? Yup. But it's not the end of the world.
A huge amount of the time spent will be spent on set-up, both on the lathe or the mill, with far less time spent cutting, proportionally.
The round column mill-drills are a better and more affordable drill press than most have available to them, too, and are worth keeping around for that purpose. Thomas Skinner in Edmonton, told me that they sold a lot of them for that purpose, and that they stocked a model that they ordered in with a taller than normal column for that express purpose.
MT3 tooling will swap in on the lathe, too, so you are not buying tooling that traps you entirely into that spindle size.
Light weight lathes, the Myford included, have their problems with rigidity. I will go out on a limb and say that a guy that has learned to make good parts on a light lathe will always be able to translate those skills to a heavier machine, while someone that only knows how to run a rigid heavy lathe, will often have a hard time putting his skills to work n the lighter one.
The lighter weight machines simply cannot tolerate dull tooling like a larger machine can, they have neither the rigidity nor the horsepower on tap.
Some time spent turning freehand with a hand held tool will also really give the worker an appreciation for a sharp tool too!
Try not to get too tied up in brand names, when shopping for used equipment. Shop for condition and tooling first. A good brand name in good condition, with good tooling, of course, will be the best catch, but paying 'good' prices for a beat up brand name lathe isn't much of a deal.
Cheers
Trev
90 or more percent of the jobs a fella is going to do do not rely upon the head indexing when the head is moved up or down the column. Essentially, those jobs will be about accurately laying out ones scribed lines, and cutting to them, which is a whole different world from a machinist that is busy making parts by reading out his coordinates on a Digital Readout.
Once you learn how to dial in off a feature using an indicator, that problem pretty much goes away.
Would it be better if it stayed in index? Yup. But it's not the end of the world.
A huge amount of the time spent will be spent on set-up, both on the lathe or the mill, with far less time spent cutting, proportionally.
The round column mill-drills are a better and more affordable drill press than most have available to them, too, and are worth keeping around for that purpose. Thomas Skinner in Edmonton, told me that they sold a lot of them for that purpose, and that they stocked a model that they ordered in with a taller than normal column for that express purpose.
MT3 tooling will swap in on the lathe, too, so you are not buying tooling that traps you entirely into that spindle size.
Light weight lathes, the Myford included, have their problems with rigidity. I will go out on a limb and say that a guy that has learned to make good parts on a light lathe will always be able to translate those skills to a heavier machine, while someone that only knows how to run a rigid heavy lathe, will often have a hard time putting his skills to work n the lighter one.
The lighter weight machines simply cannot tolerate dull tooling like a larger machine can, they have neither the rigidity nor the horsepower on tap.
Some time spent turning freehand with a hand held tool will also really give the worker an appreciation for a sharp tool too!
Try not to get too tied up in brand names, when shopping for used equipment. Shop for condition and tooling first. A good brand name in good condition, with good tooling, of course, will be the best catch, but paying 'good' prices for a beat up brand name lathe isn't much of a deal.
Cheers
Trev
Trev, sometimes when I'm reading your posts I think you're reading my mind.... Agree on all counts with your last post.
It's tough being a novice in search for a good condition used machine. It's one of those times where one needs to be a wise and experience machinist to correctly evaluate the wear or damage on a used machine. But how does the novice get to that level since they've yet to gain that experience? It's a classic "Catch22" situation. The fortunate novice will have a knowledgeable buddy so they simply tag along with wallet in hand and when the buddy says "buy it" they whip out the funds with no questions asked.
Agree on all counts with your last post.It's tough being a novice in search for a good condition used machine. It's one of those times where one needs to be a wise and experience machinist to correctly evaluate the wear or damage on a used machine. But how does the novice get to that level since they've yet to gain that experience? It's a classic "Catch22" situation. The fortunate novice will have a knowledgeable buddy so they simply tag along with wallet in hand and when the buddy says "buy it" they whip out the funds with no questions asked.
I'll try to not let it go to my head!
The truth is, no matter how crappy a lathe you buy, the one on the bench is way better than the one in the brochure. But it is worth while trying to educate oneself.
Lots of resources online, lots of good books available, and lots of free advice (if somewhat conflicting at times) to be had for the asking.
Take a good look at Varmint Al's Mini Lathe Pages, if you wish to see what can be done with a really inexpensive import lathe. Lots of thought goes into it, and you will be frustrated (a lot!) at times, but that will happen with supposedly the best lathe on the planet, too. I have proven that again and again, teaching folks the basics as the rotated through the shop I worked in as part of their trades trades training. Both by demonstrating that the lathe they were using would make the part that thy were unable to, and by putting them in front of a Schaublin 150 lathe, and allowing them to find out that it didn't work for them with that one either. It's about learning to operate a lathe. It won't make the parts without the guy standing in front of it! Even the lights-out CNC manufacturing cells were programmed by someone that had to learn what worked and what did not, as well as what worked and did not that was different for that particular machine!
The more you do the things that yo want to do with a lathe, the more you find out what your needs and wants are, and can use the information to decide whether the 'option' that pops up as a potential upgrade path, is a good choice or money not well spent, for what your needs are.
Me, I enjoy my machine tools. I have learned a great deal about how they work, and why I would use one over another, and through this education process, I have bought and resold a fair few machines that were good, but not quite right as an only lathe. I went to an awful lot of auction sales, and saw an awful lot of really really crappy lathes sell for way more than they should have, too.
I am actually a bit swamped with lathes these days, having bought my Colchester off of Crown Assets (it was in my back yard, so I could see it in person, and it was really well tooled up!), and had a well equipped Emco fall into my lap, quite literally. I will pretty much always have my Myford, as ratty as it is, at least until I either get a better one, or I can afford the Schaublin I would happily dump it for. I like my Myford, and am quite aware of it's limitations. It is still my go-to lathe when I need to make a small part.
Add to the lathes, a couple shapers, a small mill, and a full size CNC knee mill, plus an equivalent weight in literature to boot,... Yup, got the bug pretty bad!
Cheers
Trev
The truth is, no matter how crappy a lathe you buy, the one on the bench is way better than the one in the brochure. But it is worth while trying to educate oneself.
Lots of resources online, lots of good books available, and lots of free advice (if somewhat conflicting at times) to be had for the asking.
Take a good look at Varmint Al's Mini Lathe Pages, if you wish to see what can be done with a really inexpensive import lathe. Lots of thought goes into it, and you will be frustrated (a lot!) at times, but that will happen with supposedly the best lathe on the planet, too. I have proven that again and again, teaching folks the basics as the rotated through the shop I worked in as part of their trades trades training. Both by demonstrating that the lathe they were using would make the part that thy were unable to, and by putting them in front of a Schaublin 150 lathe, and allowing them to find out that it didn't work for them with that one either. It's about learning to operate a lathe. It won't make the parts without the guy standing in front of it! Even the lights-out CNC manufacturing cells were programmed by someone that had to learn what worked and what did not, as well as what worked and did not that was different for that particular machine!
The more you do the things that yo want to do with a lathe, the more you find out what your needs and wants are, and can use the information to decide whether the 'option' that pops up as a potential upgrade path, is a good choice or money not well spent, for what your needs are.
Me, I enjoy my machine tools. I have learned a great deal about how they work, and why I would use one over another, and through this education process, I have bought and resold a fair few machines that were good, but not quite right as an only lathe. I went to an awful lot of auction sales, and saw an awful lot of really really crappy lathes sell for way more than they should have, too.
I am actually a bit swamped with lathes these days, having bought my Colchester off of Crown Assets (it was in my back yard, so I could see it in person, and it was really well tooled up!), and had a well equipped Emco fall into my lap, quite literally. I will pretty much always have my Myford, as ratty as it is, at least until I either get a better one, or I can afford the Schaublin I would happily dump it for.
I like my Myford, and am quite aware of it's limitations. It is still my go-to lathe when I need to make a small part.Add to the lathes, a couple shapers, a small mill, and a full size CNC knee mill, plus an equivalent weight in literature to boot,... Yup, got the bug pretty bad!
Cheers
Trev
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
I was given a cheap junk harbour freight 7x10 in super haggard shape a year ago, and was given a copy of how to run a lathe and a few bit blanks by another friend. I don't know what I ever did without a lathe. The lathe was thrown away because no ine ever took the time to set it up. I spent a day getting it respectably tightened up and clean, and now it works great. I built an adapter shaft so I could use my tailstock to bore the chuck and just did my first crown on it. I've used it to build all kinds of stuff from tools to parts. Long story short I don't think I'll ever be without a lathe again, and can't wait to upgrade to a 12x36 sized lathe at home. Then I'll likely put the 7x10 in my service truck so I can use it on the go. Was the best money I've never spent!
