Is it time for me to leave the Tavor?

[Evil_Edie]

when i was first getting into shooting about 10-12 years ago, "tacticool" ar's were just becoming all the rage. Back then, the typical narrative on gun-related forums was that the ar was an unreliable piece of crap. Countless gi's have lost their lives in vietnam when their m16's jammed. And when the gun didn't malfunction, the 5.56 mm round that it discharged was so laughably ineffective, it couldn't stop a squirrel, let alone an enraged commie hell-bent on destroying freedom. Mot of these stories were perpetuated by people who had never fought in vietnam and had limited, if any, experience with the ar platform.

Now that the bullpup concept is gaining popularity and starting to replace the traditional rifle, the ar has suddenly morphed into a paragon of reliability. Meanwhile, untold numbers of brits, australians and others are dying in iraq and afghanistan because magazine changes take 0.005 seconds longer with their bullpups. Or so the internet would have you believe.

THANK YOU. sure guys like TDC can't run a tavor worth a crap, but that speaks volumes about his ability to adapt and take on a new manual of arms and says nothing of the rifle's design, or that of bullpups in general. TDC is the same as the riflemen who scoffed at the gatling gun. "Oh it jams if you crank it too quickly, and besides i can reload my rifle in about 20 seconds. Me and my 5 boys can fire off rounds faster than that thing and all at different targets! Oh 6 rounds per box and then you have to reload the box and then load the box into the gun? why not just load a round straight into my rifle?"

Or what of Hitler (no i'm not comparing TDC to Hitler, this just happens to be one of the more memorable cases of such an argument being made) scoffing at the worlds first assault rifle? Infantry don't need something made of toy metal firing in automatic with a cut down low powered cartridge. What they need is a carbine length length rifle with the capability to reach out!

 

[PurpleCrow]

Bullpups only take longer to reload because you're either not trained well enough on them or trying to retrain on them after coming from an AR15 background, in which case you need to get over your old habits before you can become proficient with a bullpup.
My soldiers who used the Tavor from day 1 of their service were just as fast as any of us reloading with our M4s.
As for the people that say that having the magazine in the rear doesn't allow you to keep your eyes on target while reloading... You shouldn't be looking at your magazine while reloading. It's the same in either platform.

 

[mikethebike]

^ well said
How do we get the Carnegie hall? Practice, practice, practice!

I love my tavor, I don't care if others don't like it, it's mine.

 

[Redbearded1]

Unless you're deploying in body armour, from inside a mechanized armoured personnel carrier, the Tavor is an inferior choice.

That's the only reason the Tavor was created.

Do you deploy from an APC wearing heavy body armour?

I do not. BUT, I do deploy from my pickup wearing heavy body armour ( a beer gut counts as soft armour right? It sure is heavy at least.) and the tavor gets top marks from me for that scenario. Until the day where we can use AR's in the bush, The tavor wins for me. And TDC trolling another tavor thread won't fix that AR issue.

 

[Dick Proenneke]

Tavors are very popular in USA?

How can you predict that there will be no market for the tavor in Canada if Ar15 is non restricted?
Just look at the States.

Multiple reasons:

In the USA:

- The USA has an exponentially larger general firearms market, which creates larger niche firearms markets.

- The Tavor is a $1000 cheaper in the USA ($1699 US vs. $2699 CDN)! The price in the US is closer to that of an AR.

- The Tavor is one of the newest, shiniest firearms in the USA, which is appealing to the US consumer.

- The Tavor was getting a lot of internet hype at first, and was limited in supply, and therefore benefited from the "Apple product" phenomena, further appealing to the US consumer.

- The Tavor provides a short barrel rifle solution to the SBR laws in the USA. Look at how many people avoid SBR's in the USA, just to get around paying the $200 tax stamp and licensing approval in the US. This is evident by how many shooters permanently weld their flashiders/brakes on their 14.5" barrels, to get the shortest possible package without having pay for the SBR license. This puts the Tavor in an even closer price comparison to a mid-level US SBR.

- The Tavor, has not, and will not make a noticeable dent in the US AR market.

In Canada:

- The black rifle market in Canada is reasonably small. Different gun culture, tighter regulations and a smaller primarily urban population.

- The AR15 is the do all black rifle, offering the most variability for your dollar. It can be configured for multiple calibers, barrel lengths, optics, weights, etc. Therefore, it can be configured for a tactical role, hunting role, or competition role.

- There are a multitude of aftermarket parts producers for the AR platform.

- The AR15 is the most accurate semi-auto rifle, generally available. Target variants can obtain 1/4 MOA accuracy, while achieving consistent 1 MOA accuracy with an inexpensive AR is only a matter of free floating an accurate barrel, and shooting quality ammunition. You don't have to be a match shooter to get precision bolt gun accuracy with an off the shelf AR. The best my four Tavor's ever consistently shot was 2-3 MOA with 55 gr ball to the best quality 62 gr, 69 gr, and 77 hrs match ammo. That might be minute of man, but it is not minute of varmint.

- A NR AR in Canada would achieve US pricing levels with economies of scale, offsetting some of the gouging that is currently going on.

- I have read and heard multiple Canadian shooters ask, "How do I achieve AR performance in a NR rifle." The short answer is you currently can't! Which is why NR AR'S would dominate.

- Go back in time and ask, would Canadaammo have invested the time and money in arranging for the importation of Isreali made Tavors if the AR was NR in Canada, knowing that it would be selling a package which is at best, on par with a mid-tier AR, for twice the cost?

- Let me ask you this, if the Tavor was restricted, would as many people buy it? I know that during the summer of 2013, NR Tavors were often sold out at most dealers, however there were always restricted Tavor's available. In fact a sales rep at P&D in Edmonton told me that they thought about sending their restricted Tavor's back to North Sylva, because they did not think that they would sell them. Four months later and the same restricted Tavor is still on the rack.

Final thoughts:

I like the Tavor and have explored its' capabilities and limitations. It is ###y, it feels great, and it is ultra reliable. I have spent a lot of money on Tavor's. I have tested them, modified them, and shot countless rounds threw them. However, the Tavor is not accurate, limiting its' sporting potential, and it is not very modular or customizable. Replacement parts are made by one company on another continent. In my mind the Tavor's biggest selling feature is that it is non-restricted, but does that really matter if you can't hunt with it, or hit varmints beyond 100 yards with it? If it's just a SHTF rifle, than does it really matter what is NR, and what is not? If you have a lot of money, do not have access to a range, already own an AR, and still want to play bush soldier, then buy a Tavor.

 

[mikethebike]

you're right about accuracy, but I think a better trigger would improve on that problem greatly. The trigger is god awful.

 

[TDC]

Probably shouldn't stick my nose into this conversation, but couldn't help noticing: it's "it's" not "its"................ just sayin'................

Well done, you caught one minor mistake, although its grammatical not a spelling error or blatant use of the wrong word. Regardless, good catch.

Tavors are very popular in USA?

How can you predict that there will be no market for the tavor in Canada if Ar15 is non restricted?
Just look at the States.



You said earlier that 'so what if you need to do a shoulder transition?'
I replied to your 'question' and said that tavors can do shoulder transition as fast and as easy as an Ar15. That's my point.





For Ar15, you need to get a new upper receiver, different bolt carrier group etc to make it left hand friendly.
For Tavor...all you need is a left hand bolt.

You cannot acquire a proper cheek weld from the left shoulder with a bullpup. Taking brass in the face is far from ideal. So with the only advantage of a bullpup being "longer barrel in a shorter package" you've introduced several other problems that were solved decades ago, like ambi use.

As for the Ar comment, you'd be plain wrong. There is no need to change anything on an AR to run it as a lefty. The brass deflector solves the issue that the Tavor and other bullpups can't, and the controls are usable for a lefty. The simple fact that you people fail to accept is that an AR can be used and/or transitioned from shoulder to shoulder, right hand shooter to left hand shooter WITHOUT ADDITIONAL PARTS.

You could be right...it was one of the first 'through the door' as it were...since long gone.
I'll likely own another just to piss off TDC.
I'll make sure to bring it out to a three gun that he enters and kick his AR toting a$$ with it too....

I don't really care what garbage people buy. The Tavor is not worth $2600, the US pricing is more appropriate, but the fanboy crowd in this country is too blinded by their gaming fantasy to realize they're being ripped off.

When I was first getting into shooting about 10-12 years ago, "tacticool" AR's were just becoming all the rage. Back then, the typical narrative on gun-related forums was that the AR was an unreliable piece of crap. Countless GI's have lost their lives in Vietnam when their M16's jammed. And when the gun didn't malfunction, the 5.56 mm round that it discharged was so laughably ineffective, it couldn't stop a squirrel, let alone an enraged commie hell-bent on destroying freedom. Mot of these stories were perpetuated by people who had never fought in Vietnam and had limited, if any, experience with the AR platform.

Now that the bullpup concept is gaining popularity and starting to replace the traditional rifle, the AR has suddenly morphed into a paragon of reliability. Meanwhile, untold numbers of Brits, Australians and others are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because magazine changes take 0.005 seconds longer with their bullpups. Or so the Internet would have you believe.

The mass failures in Vietnam that so many regurgitate is pure myth. There have been zero substantiated accounts of mass failures or entire units being "wiped out". Anyone with a room temperature IQ and even a mediocre interest in firearms history is aware that the problem in (early)Vietnam with the M16 was due to incorrect powder and classic dumb sh*t syndrome, where grunts(conscripts lets not forget) were told the rifles were "self cleaning".

Bullpups only take longer to reload because you're either not trained well enough on them or trying to retrain on them after coming from an AR15 background, in which case you need to get over your old habits before you can become proficient with a bullpup.
My soldiers who used the Tavor from day 1 of their service were just as fast as any of us reloading with our M4s.
As for the people that say that having the magazine in the rear doesn't allow you to keep your eyes on target while reloading... You shouldn't be looking at your magazine while reloading. It's the same in either platform.

Apparently most on this forum have limited comprehension skills. The speed of the reload is only half the equation. If you must take your eyes off the threat/area to reload, the design sucks as does your tactics. Finding the mag well without looking on a bullpup is far from easy, and I have yet to see anyone do so with kit on or heavy clothing. I agree that a reload should not require your visual attention, however, with an AR you can keep the rifle within your field of view and use your peripheral vision to aid in the reload. This cannot be accomplished with a bullpup. So, for the advantage of "longer barrel in a smaller package" you now have less than ideal ergonomics with regards to ones manual of arms. Where's the advantage again?

No one has yet addressed the fixed LOP, the poor placement of lights or the inevitable problem with eye relief and those who aren't large enough to fit the fixed LOP?

TDC

 

[mikethebike]

Can we all agree on this please and stop with the stupid nonsense bullshiat:
1 Tavors deflect brass forward at 1 o'clock! Anyone who's ever shot one will agree. You will not eat brass while shooting it leftie, unless you stick your tongue out like a retard.
2 Tavors are not as accurate as ARs, thats true, you're looking at a 3 to 4 moa gun. Its not the same mechanisms, why do you expect the same accuracy?
3 Tavors are butt heavy, some say butt ugly too, easy to hold up on target for a long ass time without shaking like you have parkinsons.
4 Tavors are built like a tank, no chinese crap here.
5 Tavors were built for amphibious assault, yes they were built for salt water sandy beach landings, means yes you can get salt in them, yes you can get sand in them, yes they will still fire.
6 Tavors are expensive, same price in an AR gets you a KAC
7 Tavors are made in Israel, my experience is Isrealis don't kid around when it comes to firearms.
8 Tavors triggers frigging suck, yes nothing really that can be done till geiselle or timmey get on board this platform.
9 Tavors are frigging cool!

 

[Crazyest Canuck]

...8 Tavors triggers frigging suck

Except with this statement in 4 months time.

 

[Chago]

another terribly long thread about how amazing and incredible tavors are. If they really are so amazing why do you people insist on shoving them down everyone else's throat. I don't want a tavor out of spite. Sell the damn gun, not to be any faster, smoother, prettier or whatever the hell else your worried about. Your sick of the gun! that's reality. Buy a new one!

 

[TDC]

Can we all agree on this please and stop with the stupid nonsense bullshiat:
1 Tavors deflect brass forward at 1 o'clock! Anyone who's ever shot one will agree. You will not eat brass while shooting it leftie, unless you stick your tongue out like a retard.
2 Tavors are not as accurate as ARs, thats true, you're looking at a 3 to 4 moa gun. Its not the same mechanisms, why do you expect the same accuracy?
3 Tavors are butt heavy, some say butt ugly too, easy to hold up on target for a long ass time without shaking like you have parkinsons.
4 Tavors are built like a tank, no chinese crap here.
5 Tavors were built for amphibious assault, yes they were built for salt water sandy beach landings, means yes you can get salt in them, yes you can get sand in them, yes they will still fire.
6 Tavors are expensive, same price in an AR gets you a KAC
7 Tavors are made in Israel, my experience is Isrealis don't kid around when it comes to firearms.
8 Tavors triggers frigging suck, yes nothing really that can be done till geiselle or timmey get on board this platform.
9 Tavors are frigging cool!

1. Have a watch, I think you'll see that brass does in fact hit the operator in the mouth. That would be a more 3 or 4 o' clock ejection wouldn't you say? Video two demonstrates a left hand CONVERTED tavor fired from the right shoulder, same effect.

2. Correct
3. Correct
4. Correct
5.Correct
6.Over priced
7.Correct, debatable.
8.Correct
9.Not a fact, a personal opinion. Cool never won a gunfight or a match.
10. The Tavor has a fixed LOP
11. The mechanical offset on a Tavor is extreme
12. The "rail estate" is minimal and offers limited sub optimal mounting positions.

TDC

 

[00aught]

why doesn't everyone just go and enjoy their tavor? no matter what anyone says TDC is just going to go on about how magical the AR is. the tavor is badass. who really cares if TDC agrees? let him be a hater.

 

[Epoxy7]

another terribly long thread about how amazing and incredible tavors are. If they really are so amazing why do you people insist on shoving them down everyone else's throat. I don't want a tavor out of spite. Sell the damn gun, not to be any faster, smoother, prettier or whatever the hell else your worried about. Your sick of the gun! that's reality. Buy a new one!

No one is shoving the Tavor down anyone's throat. Those of us that own them are just tired of reading the same Internet myths over and over. Bullpups have come along another generation. A lot of the weaknesses that are portrayed as fact were for bullpups designed 20 years ago. Even then some of it wasn't accurate.

Full ambi bullpup? PS90 comes to mind. RFB, FS2000 and the Tavor can be adjusted for left hand only use. Oh and yes you can shoot it weak side without eating brass along with a decent cheek weld. Plus fixed LOP. The back is flat and allows a fair amount of adjustment. Proper eye relief? Not a problem. Especially if you use a decent scope that doesn't change a lot when adjusting magnification or use a holo, red dot etc.

I only own one Tavor. I currently own 11 AR based rifles. Split between AR15 and AR10. Yes I really like the AR for all the reasons mentioned. But you don't see me selling my Tavor. If it was as some on here have described then I wouldn't own one. As I mentioned a lot of the weaknesses mentioned aren't as previously thought. It's an excellent all around good at most but specialized at nothing firearm. I really like mine and am only posting to try and get rid of some of the myths. The mag changes being the most common. I've even seen this in a store. That was until I demonstrated the trigger finger thumb metod of hitting the release. Then the light bulb went on.

 

[Madmardigan]

You can squabble all you want about menial crap like LOP, rail space, and the shadow your weapon ligh casts. The Tavor is a fighting rifle, and it posses all the attributes you need in a fighting rifle.
Is it reliable?
Is it durable?
Is is accurate enough to do a head shot at 100 yards, and a torso shot at 300?
Dose it take quality magazines?
Can it function reliably when it's dirty?
Are parts easy to swap out if something were to break?
And finally ergonomics. That seems to be up for debate. But in reality it's a personal preference thing. If you can run it quickly and efficiently that's all that matters. The only "flaw" is that if your shooting .223 ammunition you'll eat some brass. Which isn't a big deal to me. Reloads are fast, whether it be from standing, on the move, kneeling, or prone. Don't tell me its not, I've done it countless times.
Is it overpriced? Yep, but you gotta pay to play. I could honestly care less is some Internet commando says its a inferior rifle. Who are you? What have you done? What makes you a expert? And how is it you think you know better than the IDF? If the IDF uses it, and it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

[A.R.X-D]

With some practice you can change mags really fast:

 

[Madmardigan]

No one is shoving the Tavor down anyone's throat. Those of us that own them are just tired of reading the same Internet myths over and over. Bullpups have come along another generation. A lot of the weaknesses that are portrayed as fact were for bullpups designed 20 years ago. Even then some of it wasn't accurate.

Full ambi bullpup? PS90 comes to mind. RFB, FS2000 and the Tavor can be adjusted for left hand only use. Oh and yes you can shoot it weak side without eating brass along with a decent cheek weld. Plus fixed LOP. The back is flat and allows a fair amount of adjustment. Proper eye relief? Not a problem. Especially if you use a decent scope that doesn't change a lot when adjusting magnification or use a holo, red dot etc.

I only own one Tavor. I currently own 11 AR based rifles. Split between AR15 and AR10. Yes I really like the AR for all the reasons mentioned. But you don't see me selling my Tavor. If it was as some on here have described then I wouldn't own one. As I mentioned a lot of the weaknesses mentioned aren't as previously thought. It's an excellent all around good at most but specialized at nothing firearm. I really like mine and am only posting to try and get rid of some of the myths. The mag changes being the most common. I've even seen this in a store. That was until I demonstrated the trigger finger thumb metod of hitting the release. Then the light bulb went on.

Good post, right on the money!

 

[Brian46]

why this continued left hand debate? so what if it doesn't work for a minority, the majority of people in this world are right handed last time I checked and by a large margin.

Can the OP just sell the stupid thing already so this thread can die?

 

[ztunelover]

Alright. I have sat by in silence and allowed this to go too far. I will now take this thread so far off topic mods will have no choice but to lock it.

your bullpups may have its ups and downs compared to conventional rifles

Nothing beats my bulldoge rifle


Checkmate

 

[Shin_Gunto]

Alright. I have sat by in silence and allowed this to go too far. I will now take this thread so far off topic mods will have no choice but to lock it.

your bullpups may have its ups and downs compared to conventional rifles

Nothing beats my bulldoge rifle


Checkmate

Well, thats that.

 

[00aught]

Alright. I have sat by in silence and allowed this to go too far. I will now take this thread so far off topic mods will have no choice but to lock it.

your bullpups may have its ups and downs compared to conventional rifles

Nothing beats my bulldoge rifle


Checkmate

haha so superrifle. that made me laugh