Is it time for me to leave the Tavor?
- Thread starter the_klenzer
- Start date
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I feel the Tavor is superior to the AR in actual use (smaller, significantly higher velocities / lethality, no stock to deploy, excellent balance, far cleaner), for competition that seems from scoring not to be the case. I find I shoot the Tavor better offhand than any other black rifle, and for that I'm willing to work on techniques to get mag changes and so forth working for me. I believe with a lot of training Tavor mag changes can become pretty fast, but never equal the AR. The Tavor in my opinion easily surpasses the Vz, PE90, Mini-14, AK for mag changes once you get the rhythm right for tripping the bolt catch just as the mag sinks home. Like presspass, number one concern is non-restricted, that is huge for me as we use our private range.
Secret service has or is in the process of dumping it. The terminal performance of 5.7 is non existent, its a dead horse.
Why not work on marksmanship? Fast reloads that result in a miss, are still a miss. Fast hits equals less time and less wasted ammo, which equals fewer reloads. Using the bolt catch is a questionable method and it doesn't work 100% of the time. The advantage of the Tavor is lost outside of confined areas. The Swiss is far more accurate and much easier to mount optics to. Coupled magazines nearly negates any speed advantage the Tavor or other rifles have. The problems with the Swiss are: Cost, weight, fixed LOP, fixed flash hider, and the rock and lock magazines. The CZ/VZ with reddot is very much a contender, until you run 10 rounds or more in an AR. The mini14 is an abortion and AK's are non existent so its not worth mentioning.
The only thing that's lethal about projectiles is where you place them. Apparently some can't get off the fact that velocity threshold only applies to M855 and M193 ammo. There are better rounds available with better terminal(and trajectory) performance than both of those. Regardless, the range for which your 18.5" barrel produces above minimum threshold velocities is only 150 yards. An AR with an 11.5" or 12.5" barrel produces velocities that are nearly identical to that of a an 18" barrel, to the tune of 96% the velocity of an 18" from a 12".
You're right, the big selling feature of the Tavor and type 97 is their classification. Regardless of classification they're grossly over priced.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html
TDC
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well, we disagree on a lot of things it seems. 
AKs are very much existent, there are a several on the EE non-restricted (Valmets), and I just sold a couple of the same two weeks ago as well. The ballistic difference between 14.5" .223 velocities and 18.5" is huge, look at energy and especially energy down range. The Tavor gains as range goes out vs an M4, not diminishes as it seems you suggest, the Tavor is by no means a close quarters only pony. The rifle length barrel means that even though it's collapsed M4 length, it delivers rifle performance rather than carbine. The Tavor mounts optics as well as any of my ARs as well, with a very long, very sturdy rail. The built in BUIS sights are second to none. My PE90s were no more accurate than my Tavor either, another myth that keeps circling on the internet.
Lethality is something I have a good deal of experience with, I hunt globally and do a good deal of culling shooting dozens of head of game at a go. What I can confirm is velocity makes a big difference with any bullet, even ones that fragment / expand more readily than ball. A more frangible .223 load fired from a 14.5" and an 18.5" barrel (let alone a 10.5" to get the ready to fire AR near Tavor length) will create far more devastating terminal performance from the 18.5", even if 14.5" performance goes from mediocre to good with the new load. Irrelevant for AR guys and competition anyhow in our country.
Finally, curious you seem to like the Vz, and despise the Mini-14. The Mini is just a Vz done right, with better optics mounting, substantially better sights of longer radius to boot, made in stainless as well and three chamberings, and more have been made than the Vz and doubtless more shots fired by them. The Mini received evolutionary upgrades throughout its life, not so much for the Vz's. And then there's the Vz gremlin and the requirement for a welder to affix a certain tab for 100% reliability. I've owned an used a bunch of them, but the Vz is unfortunately just a surplus type rifle not substantially different from an SKS-D. It is popular to hate on Mini-14s in black rifle circles however.
AKs are very much existent, there are a several on the EE non-restricted (Valmets), and I just sold a couple of the same two weeks ago as well. The ballistic difference between 14.5" .223 velocities and 18.5" is huge, look at energy and especially energy down range. The Tavor gains as range goes out vs an M4, not diminishes as it seems you suggest, the Tavor is by no means a close quarters only pony. The rifle length barrel means that even though it's collapsed M4 length, it delivers rifle performance rather than carbine. The Tavor mounts optics as well as any of my ARs as well, with a very long, very sturdy rail. The built in BUIS sights are second to none. My PE90s were no more accurate than my Tavor either, another myth that keeps circling on the internet.Lethality is something I have a good deal of experience with, I hunt globally and do a good deal of culling shooting dozens of head of game at a go. What I can confirm is velocity makes a big difference with any bullet, even ones that fragment / expand more readily than ball. A more frangible .223 load fired from a 14.5" and an 18.5" barrel (let alone a 10.5" to get the ready to fire AR near Tavor length) will create far more devastating terminal performance from the 18.5", even if 14.5" performance goes from mediocre to good with the new load. Irrelevant for AR guys and competition anyhow in our country.
Finally, curious you seem to like the Vz, and despise the Mini-14. The Mini is just a Vz done right, with better optics mounting, substantially better sights of longer radius to boot, made in stainless as well and three chamberings, and more have been made than the Vz and doubtless more shots fired by them. The Mini received evolutionary upgrades throughout its life, not so much for the Vz's. And then there's the Vz gremlin and the requirement for a welder to affix a certain tab for 100% reliability. I've owned an used a bunch of them, but the Vz is unfortunately just a surplus type rifle not substantially different from an SKS-D. It is popular to hate on Mini-14s in black rifle circles however.
Geez Ardent, what were you thinking? TDC is super epic leet low speed high drag. You clearly need practice with shot placement. Just because TDC has never had to shoot a moving target never mind an armed one doesn't mean he's wrong. The awesomness of an AR with lights, lasers, popcorn maker etc will demoralize the target to defeat. You should be able to take down anything with a 22LR. Velocity doesn't matter!! If not then you should sign up for internationally unrecognized courses at the David vs Golith institute of carbine management.
Sarcasm off.
Sarcasm off.
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I just got here on this page actually, Daver. Seems you're just as guilty as me at just jumping in, and not reading the thread.
I just got here on this page actually, Daver. Seems you're just as guilty as me at just jumping in, and not reading the thread.
Yup... Been following this one for entertainment value for a while. I stopped trying to argue... At this point I am just bored and feeding the troll.
Well, we disagree on a lot of things it seems.
The Valmet is far from common and is grossly over valued. Did you have a look at the link I posted? In fact I posted several others a few pages back from users of 10.5" AR's. The velocity loss is not as great as many believe. Nevertheless, anyone wishing to shoot at extended range with an SBR has seriously f**ked up their gear selection and/or the situation. Projectiles do not "gain" energy my friend, they are always losing velocity and therefore losing energy as well. Please, educate us all on this new physics phenomenon that allows a projectile to increase its velocity without the addition of some external force.
The M4 is a 14.5" barrel, as I said, near identical velocities can be had from 11.5" and 12.5" barrels when compared to an 18". You still haven't mentioned anything about this debate revolving around two specific MIL ammo types. I don't have to shoot either of those exlusively, so it really makes little difference to me.
The integral rail on a Tavor is short and leaves a lot to be desired for placement of accessories. Tell me, can you get a magnified optic and a clip on NVD device on the rail together? I'm betting that's a no. How about a proper placement of a light? That's a big no, you're stuck with shadow no matter how you mount it. Any magical solutions to the horrible offset?
As for the Swiss sights, I don't care, I'm not comparing the Tavor to the Swiss. However, if we did comapre the two, you'd see that the swiss accuracy wise will run circles around the Tavor. The irons on a Swiss are decent, and they're setup for specific ranges right from the box. They're simple, robust and work, what more do you need in an iron sight? Does your Tavor's iron sights come with tritium or pre zeroed for several ranges?
Lethality is something I have a good deal of experience with, I hunt globally and do a good deal of culling shooting dozens of head of game at a go. What I can confirm is velocity makes a big difference with any bullet, even ones that fragment / expand more readily than ball. A more frangible .223 load fired from a 14.5" and an 18.5" barrel (let alone a 10.5" to get the ready to fire AR near Tavor length) will create far more devastating terminal performance from the 18.5", even if 14.5" performance goes from mediocre to good with the new load. Irrelevant for AR guys and competition anyhow in our country.
Why are you running a frangible bullet? What's wrong with an expanding projectile? Anything small enough to require fragmentation before the projectile exits isn't large enough to worry about with regards to terminal effects in projectile design. Like you, I've shot a lot of animals. I've also seen a lot of animals run after being shot with projectiles that were grossly over powered for the animal in question. Shot placement is the win, not bullet design. I agree that the more velocity the better, but as I posted, the difference between an 18" and those shorter is not substantial. A less than 10% loss in velocity down to very short barrels is hardly a deal breaker. Do you find it odd that 10.5" AR's are in use with many SF units? I'm sure they're struggling to down targets but are too proud to change to a longer barrel.
Finally, curious you seem to like the Vz, and despise the Mini-14. The Mini is just a Vz done right, with better optics mounting, substantially better sights of longer radius to boot, made in stainless as well and three chamberings, and more have been made than the Vz and doubtless more shots fired by them. The Mini received evolutionary upgrades throughout its life, not so much for the Vz's. And then there's the Vz gremlin and the requirement for a welder to affix a certain tab for 100% reliability. I've owned an used a bunch of them, but the Vz is unfortunately just a surplus type rifle not substantially different from an SKS-D. It is popular to hate on Mini-14s in black rifle circles however.
How is the mini a VZ done right? Its not striker fired, the safety is poorly located, it weights the same and it groups like sh*t if you can call it a group. I've shot no less than 6 different minis and watched several more, none of them would group, and some wouldn't run reliably. No one has ever fielded the mini14, period. The Gremlin you speak of is a rare beast. Of the 2 Vz's I own, the 4 a buddy owns, and the other 4 owned by 4 other buddies, not one has had the gremlin. One guy has nearly 10 crates through his, all without a single stoppage or the Gremlin. If we you want to talk troubles I guess we should bring up the slam firing of the Tavor. Oh sorry, it was due to "soft primers" I forgot, it had nothing to do with the design, even though the bolt design was changed.
The bold above.
Did you have something to add, or are you just boosting your post count?? Do you regularly "hunt down" armed individuals Epoxy7? Are you "keeping the public safe" everyday?
TDC
Incidentally how accurate was this? Either you had a surprisingly accurate tavor or a surprisingly inaccurate swiss, or it was you. With the right ammo more than one swiss owner has gotten close to 1 moa, whereas the general consensus is that the tavor is a 2-3 moa rifle(correct me if I am mistaken), which is fine for a service rifle, but is backwards of what you stated.
I have been on CGN for more than 4 years now, I have seen lot of talks on how accurate SA rifles are I have yet seen anyone post and pictures of type of grouping they are capable of. I would even settle for a 3 shot group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI5vWt3sQek
closest I can find. 3.25 inches at 300 yds for 5 shot group? That's a little over 1 moa. and that flyer could be argued to be a user error. Again, I don't own a swiss and unless prices drop dramatically I don't plan on getting one either. So people please skip the I'm biased bs.
Just because the shooter can't make the rifle perform, doesn't mean the rifle is incapable of it. All Swiss rifles ship with a test target, shot at 300 metres. The rifles can shoot.
TDC
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There is so much to chuckle at I'm not sure where to begin. Well, "my friend" and thanks for condescending, now I'm irritated and afraid I'm now catching Epoxy's meaning. So I'll come back in point form, with only what's stuck in my head to keep it simple, as a lot of it was irrelevant and it's late. These stupid arguments bring out the worst in people, myself included, but I'm diving in head first.
-Since this is sounding more and more like a Johnson measuring contest, let's be clear, I've shot way more living things and watched shot placement / velocity / bullet variations. To sound like a complete ####, "It's what I do."
-Frangible means a bullet that breaks up on impact, despite Glaser and others using it as a marketing term for low penetration. In .224" that means most bullets outside the TSX and Partition.
-Epoxy7 does keep the public safe for a living everyday.
-Neither you, I, or Internet Jesus has a use for NV on their rifle. If you like it that's great, and I'm sure it works on the Tavor too. And the Tavor mounts glass as well as, and better than most, of my black guns. Much better than my PE90s did (sight interference, short rail, and no cheek weld).
-I did look at your link, and ran it through my ballistic program; I saw benefits at every range fired to a longer barrel.
-They make readily available integral fore end lights for the Tavor, no shadows to fear.
-I have yet to experience these Tavor optics mounting nightmares...? The rail's way longer than my M4 clone's was, you've lost me.
-We have a private 1,000 yard range and we use it. Just posted an article on my site about 1,000 yard iron sight shooting, so as background, yep I can shoot and no, my PE90's never performed differently than my Tavor except that it was a bit less picky. Peak performance is identical. I won't google for you, but YouTube "Tavor accuracy", they are shooting an inch and change with mid weight ammo, including me for a BTHP load. My PE90 with RUAG was a 2" rifle reliably, that's the same as my Tavor.
-A 10% decrease in muzzle velocity in SS109 is equal to almost a quarter less kinetic energy. Since rifles are kinetic energy weapons, yes every bit matters.
-You insinuated the Tavor lost its benefits outside close quarters, so to translate for you I pointed out it has higher muzzle velocity, which down range translates to further supersonic range and energy. For instance, the Tavor will fragment ball at twice the range a 10.5" will. That matters, and indicates energy that matters even in other bullet types. As range increases, the Tavor's benefits grow, rather than shrink as it seems you suggest.
-You can't take your 10.5", NV equipped, SF approved, expanding bullet shooting AR anywhere without asking permission. That stinks.
-Since this is sounding more and more like a Johnson measuring contest, let's be clear, I've shot way more living things and watched shot placement / velocity / bullet variations. To sound like a complete ####, "It's what I do."
-Frangible means a bullet that breaks up on impact, despite Glaser and others using it as a marketing term for low penetration. In .224" that means most bullets outside the TSX and Partition.
-Epoxy7 does keep the public safe for a living everyday.
-Neither you, I, or Internet Jesus has a use for NV on their rifle. If you like it that's great, and I'm sure it works on the Tavor too. And the Tavor mounts glass as well as, and better than most, of my black guns. Much better than my PE90s did (sight interference, short rail, and no cheek weld).
-I did look at your link, and ran it through my ballistic program; I saw benefits at every range fired to a longer barrel.
-They make readily available integral fore end lights for the Tavor, no shadows to fear.
-I have yet to experience these Tavor optics mounting nightmares...? The rail's way longer than my M4 clone's was, you've lost me.
-We have a private 1,000 yard range and we use it. Just posted an article on my site about 1,000 yard iron sight shooting, so as background, yep I can shoot and no, my PE90's never performed differently than my Tavor except that it was a bit less picky. Peak performance is identical. I won't google for you, but YouTube "Tavor accuracy", they are shooting an inch and change with mid weight ammo, including me for a BTHP load. My PE90 with RUAG was a 2" rifle reliably, that's the same as my Tavor.
-A 10% decrease in muzzle velocity in SS109 is equal to almost a quarter less kinetic energy. Since rifles are kinetic energy weapons, yes every bit matters.
-You insinuated the Tavor lost its benefits outside close quarters, so to translate for you I pointed out it has higher muzzle velocity, which down range translates to further supersonic range and energy. For instance, the Tavor will fragment ball at twice the range a 10.5" will. That matters, and indicates energy that matters even in other bullet types. As range increases, the Tavor's benefits grow, rather than shrink as it seems you suggest.
-You can't take your 10.5", NV equipped, SF approved, expanding bullet shooting AR anywhere without asking permission. That stinks.
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TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
Now guys, I think TDC has worked very hard to build a counter argument and we should all respect that.
The polite thing to do is package our Tavors up and mail them back to IWI.
It has become abundantly clear that the gun is pointless, and we shouldn't shoot it any more.
Later: we can all buy AR-15s and become clean again!
The polite thing to do is package our Tavors up and mail them back to IWI.
It has become abundantly clear that the gun is pointless, and we shouldn't shoot it any more.
Later: we can all buy AR-15s and become clean again!
Had a good chuckle reading this thread. On the one hand, you've got guys who's life apparently depends on the speed of their magazine changes (and who own their very survival to AR's superior mag release button placement). On the other hand, you've got guys who shoot their Tavors at 1000 yards....with iron sights no less. When did CGN become the official website of the Green Beret retirement community?
The fact of the matter is, just about any decent modern semi-auto (i.e. not a Norinco or milsurp) will be more than accurate and "tactical" enough for 99.9% of the people on this site.
The fact of the matter is, just about any decent modern semi-auto (i.e. not a Norinco or milsurp) will be more than accurate and "tactical" enough for 99.9% of the people on this site.
Stormchaser
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
-You can't take your 10.5", NV equipped, SF approved, expanding bullet shooting AR anywhere without asking permission. That stinks.
Excellent points Ardent thanks for your post, I just had a literal laugh out loud at this final point!
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm allowing myself to get sucked into the vortex, but here we go...
Seems like some things were missed in your skim of the thread, so here's clarification.95% of your post I agree wholeheartedly with, however if the 1,000 iron sights Tavor crack is aimed at me as I suspect, you didn't read my article in the link below. That 1,000 yard shooting is with Krieger barrelled M1's and M14s, link and pics below. The TDC character suggested a couple times the reason I don't shoot ARs as well as my Tavor, and in a second post that my PE90 only shooting as well as my Tavor is due to lack of marksmanship ability. I sought to sharply rebuke him on that, shame it seems for those just skimming this it doesn't shine through.
One thing I agree 100% on is this forum being the bastion of tactical expertise, right down to which rifles are suited for night vision, despite all of us being mere hobbiests in our discussions here.
Clarification on 1,000 yard irons shooting, this is no Tavor, little dot on the right hand side, end of the clearing, is our 6 foot by 6 foot 1,000 yard board on our personal range.
http://www.morrisonarms.com/2013/11/08/
Thanks! Stayed up past my bedtime and frustrated by that point so appreciate it. I'm getting frustrated looking at phone screen again, I'm clearly on the wrong track!
