How or what is different between two externally similar air rifles, but one produces 495 fps velocities, the other 1,000 fps? Pick a manufacturer, they have their 'regular' air rifle and then a Canadian 495 version. What do they change?
Help out an airgun dummy
- Thread starter Grouse Man
- Start date
JimboJones
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Brantford, Ontario
It depends entirely on the type of air rifle.
Sometimes they add a bleed hole to the valve for pumpers and CO2, and for spring-piston it's usually a weaker spring installed. On top of that, the transfer ports, valve ports or barrel ports are sometimes a smaller diameter too.
Sometimes they add a bleed hole to the valve for pumpers and CO2, and for spring-piston it's usually a weaker spring installed. On top of that, the transfer ports, valve ports or barrel ports are sometimes a smaller diameter too.
blackacres
Regular
- Location
- Mount Hope, Ontario
As mentioned above, our Canadian laws pertaining to firearms and airgun velocities created this situation.
500 fps and lower, with limited FPE (foot pounds of energy) = no PAL
Over 500 fps, with no FPE limits = PAL is required
In the US and many other countries air gunners can shoot whatever they desire, so the manufactureres of higher velocity air guns are sold there as designed.
For the Canadian market, most air gun manufacturers offer both the non-PAL and the PAL required guns, so they can sell product to those with a PAL and those without.
An interesting fact - English made air guns are offered to 'locals' at low FPE (12 FPE as I recall), air guns that are being exported to the like of the US are 'tuned up' to the designed power levels. The same English airgun manufacturer then has to offer two other versions of the same gun for Canadian export!!
As mentioned above, the manufacturer detunes their gun so it can be offered to non PAL shooters. Spring guns get a lighter spring, the valve/hammer spring in CO2 guns are adjusted to reduce CO2 output and velocity, PCP guns get the same treatment.
Most of these detuning alterations are minor and can't be seen by just looking at the gun since in most cases the same gun is used for both PAL/non PAL.
500 fps and lower, with limited FPE (foot pounds of energy) = no PAL
Over 500 fps, with no FPE limits = PAL is required
In the US and many other countries air gunners can shoot whatever they desire, so the manufactureres of higher velocity air guns are sold there as designed.
For the Canadian market, most air gun manufacturers offer both the non-PAL and the PAL required guns, so they can sell product to those with a PAL and those without.
An interesting fact - English made air guns are offered to 'locals' at low FPE (12 FPE as I recall), air guns that are being exported to the like of the US are 'tuned up' to the designed power levels. The same English airgun manufacturer then has to offer two other versions of the same gun for Canadian export!!
As mentioned above, the manufacturer detunes their gun so it can be offered to non PAL shooters. Spring guns get a lighter spring, the valve/hammer spring in CO2 guns are adjusted to reduce CO2 output and velocity, PCP guns get the same treatment.
Most of these detuning alterations are minor and can't be seen by just looking at the gun since in most cases the same gun is used for both PAL/non PAL.
It varies from product to product. Which are you looking at?
Spring piston would have been my first guess, given those numbers, yes?
Springs are changed, the piston is changed for on that has a lesser stroke length (so the piston and sometimes the cocking arm are different), and so on.
Pretty much gotta go over the parts lists of both versions (if you can find them)to figure it out.
In the multi-pump pneumatics, setting up the compression piston that it will only reach a certain pressure level, or putting a bleeder valve in, has been done a lot.
CO2 guns, and pre-charged pneumatics, sometimes get spring sets, valve mods, flow restrictors, etc. But it varies a lot across the board.
Cheers
Trev
The Crosman Optimus will likely have a bleed hole in the piston that allows some of the pressure to exit into the tube so not all the air goes out the barrel. The spring may be a bit weaker as mentioned. The older models of this gun had the longer piston to detune it, but I guess it was cheaper to make just one piston then drill a hole in it.
Even without the hole I highly doubt that it will shoot 1200fps. I recently worked on a Crosman Phantom (basically same gun with different stock), it shot 900-930fps.
Even without the hole I highly doubt that it will shoot 1200fps. I recently worked on a Crosman Phantom (basically same gun with different stock), it shot 900-930fps.
And in some instances, the only difference between the Non-PAL and the PAL versions of the gun will be the weight of the pellet used to certify the gun by the manufacturer.
One example - the Diana 24. The "Canadian" non-PAL version is marked as such with a "C" prefix or suffix to the serial number, and on the box is a stamped proclamation to the effect that that the gun shoots at a velocity less than 500 FPS using a 10.5 gran pellet. And sure enough, with the prescribed pellet, the gun will indeed shoot at less than 500 FPS.
However, if you use a more "normal" weight pellet for a small gun such as the D-24, say around a 7 to 8 grain pellet, it will shoot at more "normal" velocities, similar to any other D-24 sold anywhere else.
Thus, the only REAL difference in the two guns, is the addition of an ink stamped certification on the box that the gun comes in.
There are of course, other guns which are dealt with in exactly the same manner, and because the legal criteria is based on the "manufacturer's pellet recommendation" it is all legal.
One example - the Diana 24. The "Canadian" non-PAL version is marked as such with a "C" prefix or suffix to the serial number, and on the box is a stamped proclamation to the effect that that the gun shoots at a velocity less than 500 FPS using a 10.5 gran pellet. And sure enough, with the prescribed pellet, the gun will indeed shoot at less than 500 FPS.
However, if you use a more "normal" weight pellet for a small gun such as the D-24, say around a 7 to 8 grain pellet, it will shoot at more "normal" velocities, similar to any other D-24 sold anywhere else.
Thus, the only REAL difference in the two guns, is the addition of an ink stamped certification on the box that the gun comes in.
There are of course, other guns which are dealt with in exactly the same manner, and because the legal criteria is based on the "manufacturer's pellet recommendation" it is all legal.
bleed hole and spring
- Location
- Thunder |Bay
Canada and England are not the only countries with a velocity restriction. A few USA states have similar restrictions. The few I have heard of in the US have a limit of 700 fps. The concept of limiting the velocity and energy of airguns is pretty common. Interestingly, the PAL rated airguns are about half the price in the USA as compared to Canada. I just bought a Crosman Fury (phantom with no iron sights) that shoots an honest 1000 with lead pellets. I won't shoot alloy pellets. Might as well just dry fire your gun. The Fury was 69.95 with a 4X scope from Pyramid Air. (remanufactured). Can't tell it from new. I declared the rifle at the border. I went inside, showed them my PAL. Paid the hst and went on my way. No problemo. Customs never even looked at the package. Pyramid Air will not ship PAL rated guns to Canada. I ordered the gun online, shipped to my USA Shipping address. It is about a 45 km drive to Grand Portage, USA from Thunder Bay. Minnesota has no velocity restrictions on airguns, so a Canadian with an airgun in the USA is a non-issue for homeland security.
It is relatively easy to upgrade a 495 fps springer to a full power gun. Change the spring and/or plug up the bleeder hole in the piston and you are good to go. As long as you have a PAL, you have done nothing illegal. Remember that the airgun is now a firearm and is subject to storage restrictions the same as any other firearm. Don't upgrade a pistol over 500 fps. Even if you have an RPAL, you just created a restricted firearm and now you are a criminal in the eyes of our government.
BTW- the optimus has the same powerplant as the fury. You can buy the spring and plug the bleeder hole. I believe you can change the optimus to a nitro piston too. The fury also comes with a nitro piston and it is the same powerplant. It is worth a try. My Fury is a springer and shoots so well after a trigger job that I'm not going to tune it at all.
It is relatively easy to upgrade a 495 fps springer to a full power gun. Change the spring and/or plug up the bleeder hole in the piston and you are good to go. As long as you have a PAL, you have done nothing illegal. Remember that the airgun is now a firearm and is subject to storage restrictions the same as any other firearm. Don't upgrade a pistol over 500 fps. Even if you have an RPAL, you just created a restricted firearm and now you are a criminal in the eyes of our government.
BTW- the optimus has the same powerplant as the fury. You can buy the spring and plug the bleeder hole. I believe you can change the optimus to a nitro piston too. The fury also comes with a nitro piston and it is the same powerplant. It is worth a try. My Fury is a springer and shoots so well after a trigger job that I'm not going to tune it at all.
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Now that is a flash of bloody common sense manipulation, on the part of the makers!
Shame the line was so arbitrarily drawn at the 500 fps point, as it really does limit most to essentially 'toy' grade air guns, and they are not really toys in any sense.
The English, with as many foolish and arbitrary laws as we have, they have their limit set at 12 ft-lb of energy, which seems a pretty sweet spot in the power/cost curve.
650+- fps with .22 or 750 with a .177, is a pretty nice range to deal with starlings and other outdoor pests, without leaving a fella wanting.
Cheers
Trev
- Location
- Thunder |Bay
I'm sure I read on an airgun forum, that if you only plug the bleeder hole in the piston and don't change the spring in the OP's crosman optimus, the velocity increases to about 700 fps without changing the supplied spring. I haven't tried this, but the job is easy, quick, and puts the velocity right in the sweet spot. It seems that folks remove the piston, clean the bleeder hole or drill it out slightly, fill it with jbweld and let it cure. That's it.
What is the point to a US 700fps restriction if there isn't a PAL system in place, and you can buy a rifle or pistol at a gunshow, with virtually no restrictions? Granted there are some states that have some sort of permitting, and I suppose they are the ones with the rules.
The whole thing is stupid, as usual. There should be an age restriction without supervision, and beyond that they should be begging people to shoot airguns. It is 100% wholesome. When they FACed the whole thing up in 76, I loved shooting airguns, and didn't want to own firearms. But when my airguns became firearms I went out and bought 12 ga, and a 30-06. Mission accomplished oh crack smoking leaders!
The whole thing is stupid, as usual. There should be an age restriction without supervision, and beyond that they should be begging people to shoot airguns. It is 100% wholesome. When they FACed the whole thing up in 76, I loved shooting airguns, and didn't want to own firearms. But when my airguns became firearms I went out and bought 12 ga, and a 30-06. Mission accomplished oh crack smoking leaders!
Wear a hair shirt for an hour as penance for calling yourself a Dummy. The whole canadian gun law thing was designed by politicians of the crack smoking, drunken, zombie variety, we now are internationally known for; along with the rat eating geeks in the silly service who flesh out their fantasies while spinally connected to a Matrix that floods their minds with dreams of power and effectiveness; then enforced by encephalitic, puss filled, blue suited, truncheon carrying, taser addicts who can't even explain the parking rules, and who randomly discharge automatic weapons at national airports, or shock to death tourists, in order to prove their prowess at arms. YOU CAN"T BE BLAMED!
It varies a lot depending on the type of gun and manufacturer. For instance some PCPs are pretty much locked in, or have expensive conversion parts. Some like the Hatsan's can be cheaply and easily upgraded.
So it depends on your intent. If one has a PAL, I don't see all that much point in the 495 rifle. Too weak for most hunting, and anything you want to use it for, like targets or city hunting, is pretty much going to be as restricted regardless of which you use. 495 isn't optimal for accuracy, and there often is no advantage in initial cost, or running cost. If on the other hand one didn't have a PAL (where you have a government file as a firearms owner), then you might prefer to pay cash and no record for your purchase. You might prefer the gun with the least upgrade path, to firm up your claim that you gun was not a PAL gun. But in many cases there is some pellet that will shoot over 495 in your gun so they can often make it look like you have a weapon that isn't non-pal, if they want to. There are a lot of other permutations, but one thing that people sometimes ask is whether if they buy a 495 while they are waiting for a PAL, can they cheaply later move up. Usually not, but sometimes yes. Maybe the Hatsan is an example. I used to own a PAL airifle that had a cool feature where the gas ram was pressurized with a foot pump, and the pump had a setting where it would set the gas ram pressure to a low level or a high level, so in that case it was pretty much setable at any level you wanted. But there was a mechanical aspect were it would seem to be fixed, you could probably have passed a veloctiy test, until they started playing pellet games. It's Canada, the rules are only there to protect the government.
So it depends on your intent. If one has a PAL, I don't see all that much point in the 495 rifle. Too weak for most hunting, and anything you want to use it for, like targets or city hunting, is pretty much going to be as restricted regardless of which you use. 495 isn't optimal for accuracy, and there often is no advantage in initial cost, or running cost. If on the other hand one didn't have a PAL (where you have a government file as a firearms owner), then you might prefer to pay cash and no record for your purchase. You might prefer the gun with the least upgrade path, to firm up your claim that you gun was not a PAL gun. But in many cases there is some pellet that will shoot over 495 in your gun so they can often make it look like you have a weapon that isn't non-pal, if they want to. There are a lot of other permutations, but one thing that people sometimes ask is whether if they buy a 495 while they are waiting for a PAL, can they cheaply later move up. Usually not, but sometimes yes. Maybe the Hatsan is an example. I used to own a PAL airifle that had a cool feature where the gas ram was pressurized with a foot pump, and the pump had a setting where it would set the gas ram pressure to a low level or a high level, so in that case it was pretty much setable at any level you wanted. But there was a mechanical aspect were it would seem to be fixed, you could probably have passed a veloctiy test, until they started playing pellet games. It's Canada, the rules are only there to protect the government.
- Location
- Thunder |Bay
I have heard that the optimus is a very smooth shooting gun at the 495 fps velocity. Very little recoil and quiet. When tuned to max power, like my fury, they become more tempermental and louder. Recoil becomes an issue with optics. If you're only going to shoot tin cans, you might enjoy the rifle more as-is. It will probably shoot most any pellet well whereas my fury is picky. Enjoy the gun and merry christmas!
