Advice requested: ONT charge - "Unlawfully possess another person's seal"

Sharkson

Sharkson

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Ontario - yeah, I'm sorry too!
I was party hunting deer near Parry Sound very recently. It was the last afternoon of my hunt before we headed home. I was with a group of 10 including my late '20's stepson and my 13 year old son who is a new Hunter Apprentice.

Near dusk, I made my way back to my vehicle parked on a side road. My 13 year old had been in the car for about 45 min because he was cold. I unloaded and made my rifle safe, opened the rear liftgate and put the rifle in with my pack. At that moment, an MNR pickup with two officers drove up. The "good cop" approached me in a friendly manner and asked me to show that the rifle was unloaded and to produce my deer licence. That's when my problems started.

I opened my pack, pulled out my waterproof pouch containing my Outdoors Card, PAL, my 13 year old's Outdoors Apprentice Card, and my stepson's deer licence/seal combo. But where was mine? I initially thought and said that I must have switched them, i.e. had given my stepson mine while I had his. But I had forgotten that my seal was on a deer shot the previous day and hanging back in the hunt camp garage. The licence portion had not been returned to me by the fellow who attached the seal!!!

I explained that I had been carrying all three licences/Outdoor Cards etc because my stepson has a habit of misplacing his stuff in our home since moving back in earlier this year. To be fair, he has not been allocated much space especially for his paperwork. I just was being a thoughtful and thorough dad making sure everything was together so the licences/seals would not be forgotten.

The MNR gentlemen went back to their truck and confirmed online that I indeed had been issued a proper licence and had no record of bad behaviour of any sort. But they still rewarded me with a $365 ticket for "Unlawfully possess another person's seal" under Fish & Wildlife Conservation Act 1997 Reg 665/98, Sec 19.

I have looked up the Act and indeed, it is a very short section saying that you cannot possess another person's seal. There is no interpretation that I have access to, to judge whether there is any precedent for fighting this ticket.

I have two choices beyond just paying up: guilty with an explanation, or not guilty and wishing a trial. I was clearly in violation of the strict reading of the regulation, but my stepson was hunting in the same party (no, they did not ask to speak with him). In a sense, I was holding the seal "in trust" for him. I had no intention of using it without him hunting with us. In fact, we came and left together to the hunt in the same vehicle.

It may be "legal" to penalize me, but certainly this doesn't feel like any sort of justice as I did nothing dangerous, unsafe or unethical.

Any helpful suggestions??
 
Your best option is not guilty and speak to the justice of the peace before trial. If you don't like their deal then talk to the judge. Unfortunately you are guilty so best option is explain yourself in court.

Going to court is not hard or scary. Just show up early well dressed and your first stop is with the jp. After that its the judge.
 
You are in the wrong, the court will "in all likelyhood" apply a strict interpretation in support of the officer... You will waste time and even more money in making an appeal... It sucks, but I would recommend paying the fine and calling it a lesson learned.
 
nissannx said:
Your best option is not guilty and speak to the justice of the peace before trial. If you don't like their deal then talk to the judge. Unfortunately you are guilty so best option is explain yourself in court.

Going to court is not hard or scary. Just show up early well dressed and your first stop is with the jp. After that its the judge.
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^^^^^^^^^^this for sure.

Be polite and explain what happened. Tell them you had no intent to commit an offence. Tell them the whole story, you tagged your deer etc. And go from there.

The CO is correct - you cannot carry another persons seal. Even inadvertently. But that doesn't mean the JP wont help you out a bit by either dropping it if he believes you had no intent, or lowering the fine to something more reasonable

Good luck
 
I don't know what else you can do beyond what has already been said.

As far as I am aware, everybody has to be in possession of their own licence while out. A fellow I know was issued a fine for carrying his daughter's apprentice card while they were out together. The COs seem to be very strict about that.
 
If you have the time to go to court I would plead guilty with an explanation and your fine will likely be reduced.... I don;t know what you do for a living and what type of vacation time you have or personal leave or if you are hourly or salaried.... typically when you weigh in all of these factors it just isn't worth fighting... especially when you are guilty...
 
I would definitely call someone, and explain yourself again for a second time, maybe this time someone will be more understanding. I thought that act only applied when your not hunting in a party. Now do I think that is "unlawfully possessing" someone else's game seal, NO. how is this unlawful he is sitting in the car and in the party. Now is you party registered? When I used to hunt with these other people we were all registered as a party with our party leader. I do believe it was a controlled hunt too on private property. Call the MRN or number on the ticket (if there is one) explain yourself. I would fight this one, if you can go to court do it, if not I personal would plea guilty with an explanation, they may reduce it. I think the MNR is hurtin for some extra cash on this ticket. Your being a father not a poacher, what next there goin to call you a thief when you hold your sons wallet??
just my 2cents
best of luck !!!!
 
nissannx said:
Your best option is not guilty and speak to the justice of the peace before trial. If you don't like their deal then talk to the judge. Unfortunately you are guilty so best option is explain yourself in court.

Going to court is not hard or scary. Just show up early well dressed and your first stop is with the jp. After that its the judge.
Click to expand...

I agree with nissannx. It was a harmless mistake. As for the C.O. "once a goon, always a goon" he could have given you a warning but hey, it's his job. Right?.:(
 
I know several people who have gotten off or had their fine reduced on various offences through 'guilty with an explanation'. Nothing major, parking tickets an expired drivers license and open liquor outside of a designated campsite in a park. Being on time, neatly dressed, polite and apologetic might go a long way in front of a judge or magistrate. Just hope for a good mood.
 
I have a friend who had almost this exact thing happen but with duck hunting... he told the CO that he couldn't trust the 12 year old kid he was mentoring to not lose or misplace his license... charge laid anyway.

He took it to court and plead guilty with an explanation and the judge reduced the fine to $50 stating that although he was in the wrong, it seemed reasonable for a parent to be in charge of important paperwork etc. that would likely otherwise be misplaced.

In my experience, if you go to provincial offenses court, present yourself well, and make your point, it is highly likely that the fine will be reduced significantly.
 
As with any provincial ticket you have 3 options, not two.

Plead guilty and pay the fine.

Plead not guity and fight it.

Retain your not guilty plea, and plead guilty to a lesser charge / penalty.

Go speak to the crown on the first appearance date and see what they offer you in the way of a plea deal. As you said, technically you may have broken the law, but you were still trying to do the right thing. The crowns want to clear their docket, and may offer you something substantially less than the fine on the ticket. You won't be admitting to anything when speaking with the crown, just seeing what they will offer. They won't up the fine, so it will stay the same or go down.

The crown will submit it as a "joint submission in regards to penalty". That is what others have said is a guilty plea with a lower penalty, option 3.

Anyone can do this. That is how the "we fight your ticket" agents work and they make a mint for what you can do for free.
 
One last post about this.

If I plead "guilty with an explanation" in an attempt to get the fine reduced, I have to appear in person with the notice in hand tomorrow between 9 and 9:45 am in Parry Sound (I live in the Toronto area). Yes, I have left this towards the end of my 15 day period. But I can't mail it in, and I can't call. Given the bad weather moving in, I have no desire to make a 3 hour poor weather drive to Parry Sound tomorrow morning in order to arrive there during that generous 45 minute window.

So the last question:

Do I instead choose option 3 and plead not guilty and request a trial date? That I can submit by mail!! Then, on the day/time of the trial, do I request to speak with the prosecutor and ask to plead guilty but with an explanation? Will I get penalized for "wasting the court's time"?
 
Plead not guilty, ask for a trial date and that will give you time to attend ahead of that trial date to resolve it, or you can resolve it on that trial date.

Or you can have a friend in perry sound attend on your behalf as "agent" with instructions on how to handle the matter.

They can't "penalize" you for wasting your time by doing exaclty what everyone else does. You have the right to a fair trial and due process.
 
Pick option 2. Plead NG. Get trial date. You can do option 3 then right up to the day of trial any time between now and then. Pleading NG will just give you time to get option 3 done. Or find someone to do it for you as agent.

You may also be able to waive the matter to Toronto court if you are doing option 3. Save you a trip.
 
They get hunters for this kind of crap all the time, they just love writing coupons out for the most minor technicalities. It is a joke, just pay the fine and move on with your life. You are guilty, Don't give them any reason next time.
 
Pay the ticket, call it lesson learned. Don't waste your time with courts, you screwed up. It's your job to know the regulations if you want to hunt, may not seem fair, but it is what it is. Learn the regs
 
My wife often carries ( possesses) a number of passports belonging to our children - which I think would be technically illegal - and the Customs folks have asked her why she has other passports - and there is no problem.

If I took your kid across the border to - say - a birthday party, I think that I could carry their passport - even though it may be illegal to carry more than one passport - just by reason of responsibility.

In the case of an apprentice, the "journeyman" hunter is responsible so would also have authority to finish off a deer or carry their gun or - I would think ( but I can be wrong) - carry their license etc..

I guess that us old-timers should brush up on the letter of the law - common sense my not be our best defense against a legal charge.
 
I suggest you take a look at section 101 of the Act.

Its probably unlikely in your instance, given the nature of the alleged offence, but keep in mind that the Crown has the option of seeking (and the Court the discretion in making) an order essentially prohibiting you from engaging in hunting and fishing activities for a period of time. See section 104(2). Just a heads up.
 
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