And in the mean time, while doing the job, you end up being is possession of a prohibited device. AFAIK, even owning a prohibited magazine disassembled is prohibited.
PMAG won't seat on a closed bolt
- Thread starter Bloodstriker
- Start date
And are you able to remove an aluminum rivet easier than you can with a steel one without tools? Brilliant. I'd like to see a video of you doing so and proving us aluminum rivet users wrong. As other pointed out, even removing a rivet or telling someone to do so in plain English is asking them to break the law and be in possession of a prohibited item. Have a nice day Mark.
x2...every P Mag that I have ever bought has come with an aluminum rivet in them. Both from a store or on the EE
Trinimon, you are completely missing the point, again. Please read what I actually write, slowly, and stop misquoting me with what you think I wrote.
If you would be so kind as to point me to where I posted that I, or anyone else, is "able to remove an aluminum rivet easier than you can with a steel one without tools", I would be obliged... No... that's because I never wrote that.
What I did write (and I hope you are reading this slowly, because I am typing it slowly), is that the regulations specifically state: "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing" which specifically excludes aluminum.
How did I reach this conclusion? Because in the previous sub-subsection it specifically states: "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material", that is, any other metal.
The actual material to be used in each case is quite specific. Also, nowhere does it state that the modification is required to be permanent, but rather that it "cannot be easily removed and the magazine cannot be easily further altered". It would require pretty much the same amount of effort and tool, or tools, to removed a rivet made of titanium, steel, aluminum, brass, even gold, if you were so inclined, but that is not the point.
So you use aluminum rivets. I really don't care, you can do as you please. I already said as much in my second post. What I also said, was that if someone else was going to advise others to use aluminum rivets in plastic magazines, in the face of clearly written regulations to the contrary, that it was not something I would do. At no time did I tell you not to do it.
As for advising anyone to remove rivets themselves, I don't believe that I said that either. I stated that I have done it myself (hundreds of Gen2 and Gen3 Pmags in the course of my work), when re-pinning them properly at 5 1/2 rounds, as well as being able to drop free from any in-spec magwell, and what I used to re-pin them.
Again, this is the internet, and you are free to do as you please.
Regards.
Mark
If you would be so kind as to point me to where I posted that I, or anyone else, is "able to remove an aluminum rivet easier than you can with a steel one without tools", I would be obliged... No... that's because I never wrote that.
What I did write (and I hope you are reading this slowly, because I am typing it slowly), is that the regulations specifically state: "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing" which specifically excludes aluminum.
How did I reach this conclusion? Because in the previous sub-subsection it specifically states: "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material", that is, any other metal.
The actual material to be used in each case is quite specific. Also, nowhere does it state that the modification is required to be permanent, but rather that it "cannot be easily removed and the magazine cannot be easily further altered". It would require pretty much the same amount of effort and tool, or tools, to removed a rivet made of titanium, steel, aluminum, brass, even gold, if you were so inclined, but that is not the point.
So you use aluminum rivets. I really don't care, you can do as you please. I already said as much in my second post. What I also said, was that if someone else was going to advise others to use aluminum rivets in plastic magazines, in the face of clearly written regulations to the contrary, that it was not something I would do. At no time did I tell you not to do it.
As for advising anyone to remove rivets themselves, I don't believe that I said that either. I stated that I have done it myself (hundreds of Gen2 and Gen3 Pmags in the course of my work), when re-pinning them properly at 5 1/2 rounds, as well as being able to drop free from any in-spec magwell, and what I used to re-pin them.
Again, this is the internet, and you are free to do as you please.
Regards.
Mark
jackrabbit000,
No, but I have only used these ones: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/mastercraft-steel-countersunk-rivets-0584722p.html#.UoaohY3hGqQ.
If you drill the hole using a 3.2mm bit, the rivet fits snug, and when you rivet it, it fits the same as any of the steel, and yes, aluminum round head rivets that they usually replace. What I also do, is to run a countersunk bit in the hole, in order to ensure that the head fits perfectly flush.
I have a jig set up in a drill press specifically to do this, and I paint the head of the rivet afterwards with a Matt Black paint that pretty much matches the black plastic.
Regards.
Mark
No, but I have only used these ones: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/mastercraft-steel-countersunk-rivets-0584722p.html#.UoaohY3hGqQ.
If you drill the hole using a 3.2mm bit, the rivet fits snug, and when you rivet it, it fits the same as any of the steel, and yes, aluminum round head rivets that they usually replace. What I also do, is to run a countersunk bit in the hole, in order to ensure that the head fits perfectly flush.
I have a jig set up in a drill press specifically to do this, and I paint the head of the rivet afterwards with a Matt Black paint that pretty much matches the black plastic.
Regards.
Mark
If you really wanted to, you could seat the rivet a little deeper (there is enough material on the magazine spine), and wipe a thin layer of epoxy over it, so that it would be practically invisible. I have done that on request a few times, but generally I find that just painting the head of the rivet does a good enough job.
Regards.
Mark
Regards.
Mark
Getting the washers to stay in place while you rivet them is the problem. You pretty much have to glue them into the magazine prior to inserting the follower and spring, and hope that they are flush enough for the follower to slide past, before sliding the base back on.
I bought boxes of the washers when I first started doing this a few years ago, and they are still in my riveting box.
Regards.
Mark
I bought boxes of the washers when I first started doing this a few years ago, and they are still in my riveting box.
Regards.
Mark
Infanteer90
CGN Regular
- Location
- Where you all want to be... Alberta
No, technically an aluminum rivet on a PMag which has a plastic casing is perfectly fine and does meet the requirements of the regulations, even according to the reference you yourself have posted.... you even highlighted it... " or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing"
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As I posted earlier, I don't really care what other people do, I just stated my own preference for following the regs.
But, I am interested to know how you came to this conclusion. So, would you mind explaining to me how aluminum is a similar material to plastic? There is absolutely no metal of any type in a PMag casing, and last time I looked, plastic and metal are not in any way considered similar materials.
Not saying you're wrong, just interested in your thought process.
Regards.
Mark
But, I am interested to know how you came to this conclusion. So, would you mind explaining to me how aluminum is a similar material to plastic? There is absolutely no metal of any type in a PMag casing, and last time I looked, plastic and metal are not in any way considered similar materials.
Not saying you're wrong, just interested in your thought process.
Regards.
Mark
I didn't read the novels written in here before me but with my PMAGS I have a similar issue, I find to get them to seat I have to use some muscle and just jam that B*#&$ up there and it then seats fine. Maybe just try that before breaking down a bunch of mags. Also I sanded down the rivet a bit and that seemed to help a small amount.
Cheers
Cheers
Infanteer90
CGN Regular
- Location
- Where you all want to be... Alberta
The aluminum rivet is stronger than the plastic that the mag body is made of so it meets the requirements of the regulations. If only steel rivets were acceptable the regulations wouldn't have included the option to use another material. Hence the reason why all the retailers who sell Pmags are comfortable in selling mags pinned with aluminum rivets. There is absolutely nothing wrong with maintaining standards higher than required by the regulations but I don't agree with insinuating that everyone else is wrong when the regulations state otherwise. You did state "Technically, the use of aluminium rivets in PMags does not meet the requirements of the regulations" and I'm quite certain this statement is unfounded.
Infanteer90,
The regulations are quite specific. They state (and you have already quoted them yourself):
(b) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
(c) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.
It clearly states that you can use a device "made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material", "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing", but please try not to read that into the sub-subsection on magazines that are not made from either steel or aluminum.
If you can show me anywhere in the regs where it says, or even implies that anything other than "steel" or "a material similar to that of the magazine casing" can be used for "a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum", I would appreciate it.
Also, nowhere does it state that you can substitute "a material similar to that of the magazine casing" for a "stronger" one, in order meet, or "exceed" the regs.
You dug up a two week old thread to post an opinion which quite frankly does not make any sense, and is not supported by anything you quoted, and when asked for an explanation, you came up with a completely new opinion, that is similarly not supported by anything in the regs. Yes, people do it, but that doesn't mean anything other than the regs aren't being enforced, probably because no one really cares. However, your argument is like saying, people break the speed limit all the time and don't get caught, so therefore driving over the speed limit is ok, and you justify it by saying that you have a better quality car than the speed limits were intended for.
Having said all that however, I am only responding to this because you quoted me. I will say this again I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU USE!
Regards.
Mark
The regulations are quite specific. They state (and you have already quoted them yourself):
(b) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
(c) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.
It clearly states that you can use a device "made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material", "in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing", but please try not to read that into the sub-subsection on magazines that are not made from either steel or aluminum.
If you can show me anywhere in the regs where it says, or even implies that anything other than "steel" or "a material similar to that of the magazine casing" can be used for "a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum", I would appreciate it.
Also, nowhere does it state that you can substitute "a material similar to that of the magazine casing" for a "stronger" one, in order meet, or "exceed" the regs.
You dug up a two week old thread to post an opinion which quite frankly does not make any sense, and is not supported by anything you quoted, and when asked for an explanation, you came up with a completely new opinion, that is similarly not supported by anything in the regs. Yes, people do it, but that doesn't mean anything other than the regs aren't being enforced, probably because no one really cares. However, your argument is like saying, people break the speed limit all the time and don't get caught, so therefore driving over the speed limit is ok, and you justify it by saying that you have a better quality car than the speed limits were intended for.
Having said all that however, I am only responding to this because you quoted me. I will say this again I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU USE!
Regards.
Mark
Infanteer90
CGN Regular
- Location
- Where you all want to be... Alberta
My mistake I guess, I didn't realize that there was time limit to respond to comments made on the forum. I understand you don't care what I/we use, that's not the point. We are debating the legality of pinning Pmags with aluminum rivets. I'm not trying to argue with you but rather have an informed discussion about a point that you very clearly brought up. You are under no obligation to respond to anything that I post. If you feel you are correct that's cool, but I think you are making a mistake and am trying to explain why. If nobody else is going to join in then this will be my last post on the matter, but you did say that you wanted to know what my thought process was.... so I told you. If you don't care what my opinion is then don't ask for it. And your analogy for what I said is totally off base and not what I was saying at all. I'm not saying that it's okay because dealers do it, I'm saying that they wouldn't be doing it if there was any chance that it was contrary to regulations.
My point about the materials being used was simply that you stated that steel rivets are required and I was pointing out that the regulations allow for materials other than steel based on the type of magazine casing. They allow for options and are written in such a way as to not be too specific... for example "the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device" In this case a rivet is deemed to be a suitable device even though it's not specifically mentioned. The rivet can be made of steel or a material similar to that of the magazine casing... well a plastic rivet is not feasible so an aluminum rivet would meet (exceed?) the requirement. This is my point. If you don't see it (not willing to see it?) then there is nothing more to debate.
Anyways, I still maintain that the regulations do not require the use of steel rivets (when rivets are used) to legally meet the standards stipulated by the regulations. When people start getting charged for possessing Pmags that are limited to 5 rounds by way of aluminum rivets I'll know that I'm wrong... but I don't see that happening anytime soon. To each his own.
My point about the materials being used was simply that you stated that steel rivets are required and I was pointing out that the regulations allow for materials other than steel based on the type of magazine casing. They allow for options and are written in such a way as to not be too specific... for example "the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device" In this case a rivet is deemed to be a suitable device even though it's not specifically mentioned. The rivet can be made of steel or a material similar to that of the magazine casing... well a plastic rivet is not feasible so an aluminum rivet would meet (exceed?) the requirement. This is my point. If you don't see it (not willing to see it?) then there is nothing more to debate.
Anyways, I still maintain that the regulations do not require the use of steel rivets (when rivets are used) to legally meet the standards stipulated by the regulations. When people start getting charged for possessing Pmags that are limited to 5 rounds by way of aluminum rivets I'll know that I'm wrong... but I don't see that happening anytime soon. To each his own.
I tried to explain that in my earlier posts but gave up...
This is one of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum before. No wonder some people think Canadian firearm laws are confusing, they read them, and then make up a whole new interpretation of them as they go along.
The regulations are quite clear and specific. Aluminum, steel, or other similar material (metal) devices in aluminum or steel magazines. Steel or devices made of the same material as the casing in non-aluminum or non-steel magazines. It clearly does not state aluminum devices can be used in non-aluminum and non-steel magazines, and it is not an oversight or omission, as it mentions aluminum in the previous part. It also does not mention the substitution by other "superior" materials in order to "exceed" the regulation.
Yes, plastic rivets would not be feasible, but it does not say you have to use a rivet anywhere, the rivet falls under the phrase "similar device" to "a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange". You could block the magazine with a plastic "plug" or "rod", and attach it by "applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue", as allowed under the regulations. The rivet, or similar device, if it can not be made from a material similar to the casing, ie, plastic/polycarbonate/etc. must be steel. No, if's, but's, or and's.
Dealers were selling prohibited unpinned M&P 15-22 magazines for months after the regulations for that came out, simply because they did not read or understand the regs, and no one that I know of who did that got in trouble. Did that make it ok to do? Dealers also do a lot of other things, like not knowing that semi-auto shotguns are limited to 5 rounds in the magazine, the same as centerfire rifles, despite selling hundreds of said shotguns. Dealers do not know all the regs, all the time.
I have said I don't care what you do, but don't try to justify it with "but dealers do it", or "no one has gotten into trouble for it". That is like advising someone that it is ok to bring a scope over the US border without the proper paperwork, because you/your buddy/your uncle's friend did it, and didn't get in trouble. Something I see on here and other forums all the time.
I can't explain this any clearer. I'm done here.
Regards.
Mark
The regulations are quite clear and specific. Aluminum, steel, or other similar material (metal) devices in aluminum or steel magazines. Steel or devices made of the same material as the casing in non-aluminum or non-steel magazines. It clearly does not state aluminum devices can be used in non-aluminum and non-steel magazines, and it is not an oversight or omission, as it mentions aluminum in the previous part. It also does not mention the substitution by other "superior" materials in order to "exceed" the regulation.
Yes, plastic rivets would not be feasible, but it does not say you have to use a rivet anywhere, the rivet falls under the phrase "similar device" to "a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange". You could block the magazine with a plastic "plug" or "rod", and attach it by "applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue", as allowed under the regulations. The rivet, or similar device, if it can not be made from a material similar to the casing, ie, plastic/polycarbonate/etc. must be steel. No, if's, but's, or and's.
Dealers were selling prohibited unpinned M&P 15-22 magazines for months after the regulations for that came out, simply because they did not read or understand the regs, and no one that I know of who did that got in trouble. Did that make it ok to do? Dealers also do a lot of other things, like not knowing that semi-auto shotguns are limited to 5 rounds in the magazine, the same as centerfire rifles, despite selling hundreds of said shotguns. Dealers do not know all the regs, all the time.
I have said I don't care what you do, but don't try to justify it with "but dealers do it", or "no one has gotten into trouble for it". That is like advising someone that it is ok to bring a scope over the US border without the proper paperwork, because you/your buddy/your uncle's friend did it, and didn't get in trouble. Something I see on here and other forums all the time.
I can't explain this any clearer. I'm done here.
Regards.
Mark
To try and get to the bottom of this, not so much as to end a debate but to everyone's benefit, I contacted the Ontario CFO on this issue. I asked if it was legal to remove the pin, disassemble my magazines to clean and/or repair them. The answer was "It is okay to strip your magazines, clean/repair them with identical parts." I asked about aluminum or steel rivet to repin them and was told to use an identical one that it came with. Well on the upside, they did not outright say no aluminum rivet nor did they say it must be steel. Everyone wins in our vague Canadian firearm laws.
