Annealing Machine question

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calgarycanada

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Sorry if its a repost, I did try searching.

I would like to start annealing my brass, after trying and frying few scrap cases I have come to conclusion that socket in a drill and torch is not for me. I need something more for consistent results. Annealing machines are little more money than what I would like to spend. Here's my question,

Does anybody have a step by step DIY guide to build one? It doesn't look that complicated but hearing from experienced people would be nice. Pictures/videos with instructions would be icing on the cake. I would like to have basic rotating block with case spinning at all time(for more even heat).

As per skills I'm half decent with tools, my brother is a welder and if I can put a plan and specs together he can help me build/weld the items together.

Also one more question, most of the videos I watched say drop the brass in water right after, but I have read somewhere that you shouldn't drop hot brass into water and wait till it cools down a little before dropping it in water. Which is better? I personally think drop it in water right away coz you don't want heat to travel any further down but I have been wrong more times than right so pls explain.

Any help is appreciated and thanks in advance.
 
calgarycanada said:
Sorry if its a repost, I did try searching.

I would like to start annealing my brass, after trying and frying few scrap cases I have come to conclusion that socket in a drill and torch is not for me. I need something more for consistent results. Annealing machines are little more money than what I would like to spend. Here's my question,

Does anybody have a step by step DIY guide to build one? It doesn't look that complicated but hearing from experienced people would be nice. Pictures/videos with instructions would be icing on the cake. I would like to have basic rotating block with case spinning at all time(for more even heat).

As per skills I'm half decent with tools, my brother is a welder and if I can put a plan and specs together he can help me build/weld the items together.

Also one more question, most of the videos I watched say drop the brass in water right after, but I have read somewhere that you shouldn't drop hot brass into water and wait till it cools down a little before dropping it in water. Which is better? I personally think drop it in water right away coz you don't want heat to travel any further down but I have been wrong more times than right so pls explain.

Any help is appreciated and thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


As far as your question concerning water dropping. Most knowledgeable folks don't, it does nothing for you. There are a bunch of well meaning idiots on youtube that haven't got a clue about annealing. You will see most of them overheating the brass to an orange colour, that is way too hot. What you want is a just a faint silver blue, if the neck and shoulder are still shiny, all is well.
 
calgarycanada said:
I would like to have basic rotating block with case spinning at all time(for more even heat).
Click to expand...

It doesn't match your design idea of having a rotating block, but here is my method of annealing. Far better temperature control and more even heating than any torch method could ever hope to have, throughput as fast or faster than any of the $400 dollar gee-whiz machines, and can be put together for well under $100.

http://s262.photobucket.com/user/BattleRife/media/Saltbathannealingdemo2.mp4.html

Water dunking is done to make the cases cool to handle and/or to clean them. There is no reason to delay dropping them into the water, if they are bound to go into the water at all.
 
I annealed in the dark. Way easier. Still require good eyes to see the colour.

With the lights on it was too difficult.

I've thought about building a machine too. I like DIY projects. Let us know what you come up with.
 
If you want consistency you are going to have to get some Tempilaq to ensure you are getting to the right temp. This still applies even if you build a machine as you need to set it up for the correct amount of heat.

So. Get some Tempilaq (since you are going to need it anyways) and try the drill and socket one more time.

The two methods I know of are
#1 Using 650*F Templiaq and painting the inside of the case neck and put heat on outside of the case mouth. When the paint melts it is done. I don't like this method because it leaves burnt paint in the case mouth and is hard to get rid of.

#2 Use 450*F Tempilaq and paint the outside of the case body just below the shoulder. Put heat on the case mouth, when enough heat transfers down the case to melt the paint it's done.


Either of these 2 methods produce consistent results with the drill or are good to set up and check a machine.
 
Republic of Alberta said:
If you want consistency you are going to have to get some Tempilaq to ensure you are getting to the right temp. This still applies even if you build a machine as you need to set it up for the correct amount of heat.

So. Get some Tempilaq (since you are going to need it anyways) and try the drill and socket one more time.

The two methods I know of are
#1 Using 650*F Templiaq and painting the inside of the case neck and put heat on outside of the case mouth. When the paint melts it is done. I don't like this method because it leaves burnt paint in the case mouth and is hard to get rid of.

#2 Use 450*F Tempilaq and paint the outside of the case body just below the shoulder. Put heat on the case mouth, when enough heat transfers down the case to melt the paint it's done.


Either of these 2 methods produce consistent results with the drill or are good to set up and check a machine.
Click to expand...


The 650 on the inside of the case neck is a good indicator! The burnt residue can be removed with a drill and bore brush.
If you use a machine like the Bench Source you only have to do this on one or two brass to get initial set up so cleaning the neck is not needed. Its also important to clean case necks before annealing so the carbon does not bake on but there's also such thing as to clean of a neck this will show if you are using a force gauge on your press as well as feel during the bullet seating process.
 
BattleRife said:
It doesn't match your design idea of having a rotating block, but here is my method of annealing. Far better temperature control and more even heating than any torch method could ever hope to have, throughput as fast or faster than any of the $400 dollar gee-whiz machines, and can be put together for well under $100.

http://s262.photobucket.com/user/BattleRife/media/Saltbathannealingdemo2.mp4.html

Water dunking is done to make the cases cool to handle and/or to clean them. There is no reason to delay dropping them into the water, if they are bound to go into the water at all.
Click to expand...

Where did you get the KNO3? Last I checked you cant buy it in Canada any more.
 
Apparently some people are having trouble seeing the video.

The setup is a Lee Precision Melter pot ($50 at Wholesale Sports) filled with potassium nitrate salt, which melts at about 330C, very close to the same temperature lead does. My holder/shield is made of 304 stainless sheet metal GTA welded together, but I know one guy has made a similar one using carbon steel sheet held together with all-thread rod and jam nuts. I used to run a thermocouple to experiment with temperature, but my thermocouple reader died and I haven't procured a new one yet, they aren't essential, you can go off colour once you've done it a few times. It helps that I took this photo back when I was still experimenting with it:



I confess I haven't had to buy the salt since it became subject to regulation. I bought mine in a Safeway pharmacy, I've people say you can't do that anymore, others say yes, you can. I know guys in the US are getting it off Ebay easily enough.
 
650 Tempilaq on the inside of the neck is not the correct choice. You need 750 for inside the neck. Brass is not properly annealed at 650 unless that temp is maintained for a (possibly) dangerously long time. Benchsource uses 650, but they reccomend putting it just below the shoulder, which "may" mean the neck gets to 750. But if you can just get 750 Tempilaq why wouldn't you go with that inside the neck and be more precise? I also use 450 halfway down the case to make absolutely sure the heads not affected.

Picking a dwell time based on color of the brass is just a W-A-G and quite frankly is a bit irresponsible.

There is lots of incomplete and just plain old bad advice about brass annealing on the Web. Do your research and stay safe.

The link above to the Ballistic Edge machine also recommends a neck temp of 750 BTW. As does Anneal Rite.
 
MikeTheRock said:
650 Tempilaq on the inside of the neck is not the correct choice. You need 750 for inside the neck. Brass is not properly annealed at 650 unless that temp is maintained for a (possibly) dangerously long time. Benchsource uses 650, but they reccomend putting it just below the shoulder, which "may" mean the neck gets to 750. But if you can just get 750 Tempilaq why wouldn't you go with that inside the neck and be more precise? I also use 450 halfway down the case to make absolutely sure the heads not affected.

Picking a dwell time based on color of the brass is just a W-A-G and quite frankly is a bit irresponsible.

There is lots of incomplete and just plain old bad advice about brass annealing on the Web. Do your research and stay safe.

The link above to the Ballistic Edge machine also recommends a neck temp of 750 BTW. As does Anneal Rite.
Click to expand...

Who says the neck temp does not reach 750? Just because the 650 indicator is used does not mean that the neck does not reach 750 BTW!

BTW I have talked to the guys who make the Bench Source extensively and have annealed lots and lots of brass with great success! Using a 750 indicator is fine if done properly and used accordingly but if used on the inside of the neck and it melts before or as it leaves the flame you could be overheating the neck. The 650 indicator gives you a buffer as the neck temp continues to rise as most of the heat travels towards the neck. If you use the 750 indicator it must melt at a different point after exiting the flame or you could overheat the brass.The same goes for using the 350 temp indicator on the head area it gives you a safe buffer.

Yes you are right there is lots of incomplete bad advice! I can provide reference to how my reloads shoot can you?
I have done allot of experimenting and have a firms grasp of what works and does not. Like anything you can read all you want and theorize all you want nothing trumps experience and results BTW!
 
Now what we need is to have someone that has purchased or made one of these annealing machines to start an annealing service. I have a thousands or so Lapua cases that I would like to get annealed. While I do not believe that cases need to be anealed every time they are fired, I think they should be anealed once in a while after a few firings. This bunch of brass has been used to shoot-out 3 barrels on my .308 and I am working on the forth barrel, so now may be the time to do it during the off season.
 
"...just a faint silver blue..." You don't want blue either.
"...have read somewhere that you shouldn't drop hot brass into water..." That's how it's done. Heat the cases until they change colour and tip 'em over. No drills or sockets required. Just a pan of tap water and a regular propane torch.
 
maynard said:
Now what we need is to have someone that has purchased or made one of these annealing machines to start an annealing service. I have a thousands or so Lapua cases that I would like to get annealed. While I do not believe that cases need to be anealed every time they are fired, I think they should be anealed once in a while after a few firings. This bunch of brass has been used to shoot-out 3 barrels on my .308 and I am working on the forth barrel, so now may be the time to do it during the off season.
Click to expand...

I do not anneal .308 brass every firing maybe every 3rd or fourth or more if I am lazy also depends on what your objective is. It's the .338LM and .50 brass you see the life extension and accuracy gains. I am sure some BR fags do it every firing on every thing just like an IPSC ### sews another badge on his black shirt in his mothers basement before each Match;)
 
maynard said:
Now what we need is to have someone that has purchased or made one of these annealing machines to start an annealing service. I have a thousands or so Lapua cases that I would like to get annealed. While I do not believe that cases need to be anealed every time they are fired, I think they should be anealed once in a while after a few firings. This bunch of brass has been used to shoot-out 3 barrels on my .308 and I am working on the forth barrel, so now may be the time to do it during the off season.
Click to expand...

Guy in the states does this. Search Sniper Hide for him.
 
Shibby! said:
Guy in the states does this. Search Sniper Hide for him.
Click to expand...

Yea, he does offer an annealing service however he won't ship to Canada. At least that is what he told me when I spoke to him on the phone.

So yes it would be nice if someone with a machine in Canada offered the same service he does.
 
I don't think anyone has done really extensive research on annealing, which explains the differences in opinion. There are some that anneal after every reload, and insist that it works, because they are in the top ranks of their sport. Yet others, also at or near the top never do. Perhaps the top shooters would have won anyway, without annealing?
I know people that overheat the necks to red hot, and think that's ok, because nothing bad has ever happened, yet.
 
ryan said:
I don't think anyone has done really extensive research on annealing, which explains the differences in opinion. There are some that anneal after every reload, and insist that it works, because they are in the top ranks of their sport. Yet others, also at or near the top never do. Perhaps the top shooters would have won anyway, without annealing?
I know people that overheat the necks to red hot, and think that's ok, because nothing bad has ever happened, yet.
Click to expand...

It's not that simple! Annealing is not done just for accuracy!
 
maynard said:
Now what we need is to have someone that has purchased or made one of these annealing machines to start an annealing service. I have a thousands or so Lapua cases that I would like to get annealed. While I do not believe that cases need to be anealed every time they are fired, I think they should be anealed once in a while after a few firings. This bunch of brass has been used to shoot-out 3 barrels on my .308 and I am working on the forth barrel, so now may be the time to do it during the off season.
Click to expand...

By the time you get raped and pillaged by Canada Post for sending your 20+ pounds of brass somewhere and back, plus the fuel surcharge, buying your own unit starts to make sense.
 
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