Plastic Shotshell Smokeless for 577 Snider
- Thread starter sledge
- Start date
Why would one want to use smokeless?
One of the things I most like about my Sniders, Snuff boxes (Tabatiere) and muskets is the powder.
The smoke, the powder, smell and overall presence of the experience of firing one of these is just so much fun!Why,Why,Why soften and muffle the poor thing?
It will blow up in your face!
Let er roar! Lets see Smoke!
janice
One of the things I most like about my Sniders, Snuff boxes (Tabatiere) and muskets is the powder.
The smoke, the powder, smell and overall presence of the experience of firing one of these is just so much fun!Why,Why,Why soften and muffle the poor thing?
It will blow up in your face!
Let er roar! Lets see Smoke!
janice
Actually, I quite agree with Janice on that, but don't tell her I said that.
The only powder which even goes NEAR my Sniders is Black.
4198 is a progressive powder, albeit a rather fast one..... and a progressive powder is about the last thing I would want in a thin, brown-iron barrel which is already 150 years old.
The ONLY smokeless which I would even THINK about loading would be SR-4759, which is a standard Black-powder substitute at 38%-of-Black loading levels BY WEIGHT. It duplicates your BP ballistics and pressures, but 38% of Black is absolute MAX: it can build a pressure spike very rapidly at anything more than that.
Play it safe: stick with Black.
More FUN, anyway!
The only powder which even goes NEAR my Sniders is Black.
4198 is a progressive powder, albeit a rather fast one..... and a progressive powder is about the last thing I would want in a thin, brown-iron barrel which is already 150 years old.
The ONLY smokeless which I would even THINK about loading would be SR-4759, which is a standard Black-powder substitute at 38%-of-Black loading levels BY WEIGHT. It duplicates your BP ballistics and pressures, but 38% of Black is absolute MAX: it can build a pressure spike very rapidly at anything more than that.
Play it safe: stick with Black.
More FUN, anyway!
I did this a few years ago.
I worked up six loads that I employed in 24 ga Fiocchi shotgun hulls with a shot wad acting as a sabot. All loads were under a 54 Cal 405 gr cast bullet, and are quite mild, my objective being 1100-1200 fps. None used filler, except the shot wad which took up most or all of the empty space. I found H4198 the slowest powder that would burn consistently at the low pressures I employed (~12,000 psi) - slower powders tended to just spit out the bullet along with mostly unburned powder.
Trail Boss - 15.0 grs - 1100 fps
Unique - 18.0 grs - 1150 fps
SR4759 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
AA5744 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4227 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4198 - 40.0 grs - 1150 fps
While thumbing through the Ballistics Products Catalog it had occurred to me that the 24 gauge "Shotcup" (#SG24) over a Lee 54 cal Minie bullet (#90474), would likely add up to about the 0.588" bore size of my Snider Cadet Carbine. I ordered a bag of 200 shotcups and the Lee mold, and to my delight, the dimensions were perfect (the petals being about 0.024" thick). Further, the shotcup was about the perfect length to fit over the powder and under the bullet for an OAL of 2.350" (good for my chamber), and that served to fill the massive empty space and kept the powder close to the primer.
The Fiocchi hulls let you know very early that pressure is getting into the "moderate" range. Even the slower powders like H4198 start to deform the thin brass base at about 1050 fps. So the way I see it, the Fiocchi will give up well before the Snider.
I worked up six loads that I employed in 24 ga Fiocchi shotgun hulls with a shot wad acting as a sabot. All loads were under a 54 Cal 405 gr cast bullet, and are quite mild, my objective being 1100-1200 fps. None used filler, except the shot wad which took up most or all of the empty space. I found H4198 the slowest powder that would burn consistently at the low pressures I employed (~12,000 psi) - slower powders tended to just spit out the bullet along with mostly unburned powder.
Trail Boss - 15.0 grs - 1100 fps
Unique - 18.0 grs - 1150 fps
SR4759 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
AA5744 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4227 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4198 - 40.0 grs - 1150 fps
While thumbing through the Ballistics Products Catalog it had occurred to me that the 24 gauge "Shotcup" (#SG24) over a Lee 54 cal Minie bullet (#90474), would likely add up to about the 0.588" bore size of my Snider Cadet Carbine. I ordered a bag of 200 shotcups and the Lee mold, and to my delight, the dimensions were perfect (the petals being about 0.024" thick). Further, the shotcup was about the perfect length to fit over the powder and under the bullet for an OAL of 2.350" (good for my chamber), and that served to fill the massive empty space and kept the powder close to the primer.
The Fiocchi hulls let you know very early that pressure is getting into the "moderate" range. Even the slower powders like H4198 start to deform the thin brass base at about 1050 fps. So the way I see it, the Fiocchi will give up well before the Snider.
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
smokeless should never even be in the same sentence as snider these are converted muzzleloaders and have a lot of age on them. trail boss even more so has been known to show pressure spikes in both snider and martini henry rifles
get some goex 1f or 2f and load with it
get some goex 1f or 2f and load with it
To further add - these guns are pretty darn easy to clean - open barrel on both ends, simple mechanism... The realistic chance that a gun such as a snider could fail means that it's a huge risk. They don't even necessarily have a full locking system like you see on trapdoors or wanzl's.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
even easier to clean if you take the action out of the stock and take the breach block off putting the action and barrel into a bucket of water and running a cleaning rod down the barrel(muzzle guide is recommended to prevent muzzle wear)
also only real BP or pyrodex should be used as 777 is a smokeless
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
I think you are asking this because of the simplicity of using factory ammunition rather than loading your own? I'm afraid that there is no short cut for what you need to do. No insult meant to anyone here but as said, the Snider was designed for black powder. Get some 24 gauge brass shot shells. If you post an ad in the EE you will get a response. You do not need any special tools or dies to reload for a Snider. A Lee mold for either round ball or a minnie can be purchased reasonably cheap. Then brace yourself for a lot of fun.
Cheers
Cheers
I understand some have concerns with using smokeless but there are risks involved with reloading anything if you are not careful. I have used 4198 in my Mauser 71/84 with great success.
The "redneck" loads on youtube for Snider using shotshells seem to all involve blackpowder. Just wanted to see if someone tried the same method using a smokeless.
Cheers,
The "redneck" loads on youtube for Snider using shotshells seem to all involve blackpowder. Just wanted to see if someone tried the same method using a smokeless.
Cheers,
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
smokeless is safe in modern guns and for what it is a 71/84 is stronger then a snider that has a soft iron barrel from a muzzleloader p1853 to be exact. the redneck way is also using 28ga totally unsafe I know I tried(knowing better too) and turned my cadet carbine into a auto eject not fun get some goex and plastic or brass 24ga some soft .600 round balls and shoot away
Yep - I shoot smokeless in my 71/84 as well. Thing is that the difference in time, design and quality between the two are drastically different. They are:
1) Time - Sniders were generally built on altered P53 muzzle loading rifles. Some were built as sniders from the factory, but most I see are conversions. This means you're using a gun built some 20-30 years before the first G71/84's entered service, and in that time metal quality and working techniques were rapidly evolving.
2) Design - The G71/84 was built as a cartridge rifle with a very large heavy and rigid single recoil lug. It also has a comparatively heavy receiver ring and barrel around a somewhat narrower cartridge. In the event of a cartridge failure or detonation it can theoretically vent downwards into the receiver and mag tube and blow out the thinner bottom wood on the gun as well as deflect away from the left hand side of the gun because of receiver design. The snider by comparison vents backwards and upwards if there's a failure. Adding to this problem is the fact that if it were to vent back and out it would likely at least open the action, if not shear the block mounts or block pivot pin as it went. I would say this would be a possibility with the snider because of the iron that was used to build them; it was definitely quality, but it was nonetheless quality for the 1850's/1860's and built for black powder guns.
3) Quality - Similarly to time, the quality of product increased greatly with the intervening 30 years of development. Additionally, the P53 was never meant as a cartridge gun and was built as such. God knows these conversions weren't meant for sustained long term use, but rather as a stop gap to keep up with other countries while a purpose built gun could be put into service, and was some 5 years later.
That's just my point of view. I'm sure these guns can be great guns when used with black powder, but smokeless just introduces a possibility of error that has several potential aspects resulting in catastrophic failure.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
Not all sniders were built from 1853 enfields.
28 gauge would be a bad idea. Sort of like firing a .20 gauge in a .12 gauge.
I would just reload with FFG and brass. Besides it looks more period correct
Cheers, McLean
some are 1861 short rifles and the mk3 are made from new steel barrels but still use the same locks
We tried using 28-bore casings in a Snider here.
Damned thing tried to go full-auto.
Action blew open, case ejected into the shooter's face, along with a big blast of burning powder.
Toasted his brand-new $420 pair of glasses.
COULD have been his eyes.
I have the empty casing here: NOT pretty.
Play it safe.
24-bore is good to go; 28 just might be your fate.
Damned thing tried to go full-auto.
Action blew open, case ejected into the shooter's face, along with a big blast of burning powder.
Toasted his brand-new $420 pair of glasses.
COULD have been his eyes.
I have the empty casing here: NOT pretty.
Play it safe.
24-bore is good to go; 28 just might be your fate.
Using the 24ga brass, with BP and soft lead projectile, would it be consonsidered legal for shot gun only deer hunting, much the same as a 12 or 20ga rifled slug gun?
I'd like to use a cadet carbine or even make use of a bubba cut down version to hunt with. Southern On. is mostly shotgun/muzzle loading only.
I'd like to use a cadet carbine or even make use of a bubba cut down version to hunt with. Southern On. is mostly shotgun/muzzle loading only.
Doubt it. The thing was made as a rifle. A rifled shotgun isn't the same as a rifled rifle.
Now if you were to take a Snider and rebarrel it with a rifled 20ga shotgun barrel.....
Don't know if you could get an answer from MNR on that one.
Now if you were to take a Snider and rebarrel it with a rifled 20ga shotgun barrel.....
Don't know if you could get an answer from MNR on that one.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
I had a adam savage moment when my did it first thing i said is am I missing an eyebrow lol. case did not hit me but came close to doing so defiantly not the brightest idea I've had as I already knew about the breech blocks tending to fly open when gas gets under them
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
most likely not my answer is head to a WMU that dose not have a limit .577 snider should work well on moose too
