Anybody shooting a 6mm-284?

[BadAsMo]

BadAsMo, seems to me that south of the border some years ago, a fellow by the name of Bill Shehane made something of a name for himself shooting 6-284s in 1000 yard bench matches. And if you think the 6-284 is overbore, ask C-FBMI about his baboon gun.

Ask Bill Shehane how many rounds he got out of his barrels. Oh hey, BTW - how long ago was that? I'm thinking maybe we have better calibers these days... There was a time that a 10 inch group at 1000 yards was a dead winner - now it's guaranteed last place.

Hey, if you guys wanna burn up barrels go right on ahead. It's good for the economy. Nobody mentioned it so I thought maybe nobody was thinking about it.

I just don't see the long range ballistic payoff of dropping from a typical .640 BC with a 140 grain 6.5mm round to a typical .535 BC with a 115 grain 6mm round. The velocity spread will just not make up for the difference.

 

[c-fbmi]

Ask Bill Shehane how many rounds he got out of his barrels. Oh hey, BTW - how long ago was that? I'm thinking maybe we have better calibers these days... There was a time that a 10 inch group at 1000 yards was a dead winner - now it's guaranteed last place.

Hey, if you guys wanna burn up barrels go right on ahead. It's good for the economy. Nobody mentioned it so I thought maybe nobody was thinking about it.

I just don't see the long range ballistic payoff of dropping from a typical .640 BC with a 140 grain 6.5mm round to a typical .535 BC with a 115 grain 6mm round. The velocity spread will just not make up for the difference.

Yep, you are entirely correct..............you just don't get it !!!!

 

[Why not?]

He really doesn't, does he?

Ted

 

[track]

I would like to hear about this baboon gun.

 

[track]

Wholee barrel burner Batman. The 6.5x284 is a barrel killer and a 6x284 would be about half that for barrel life. I'd bet the barrel on a 6x284 would be a tomato stake by 500 rounds. Worse yet, the powder would have to be such a slow burn rate that your velocity spreads would be all over the place.

What's with this fascination about speed anyway? Sure with ultra high velocity you get sorta flat out to about 200 yards, but after that there's nuthin left and the bullets drop like a stone. If you're looking for a long range rifle, then focus on what f-Class shooters are using. I aint ever seen a rifle like what's described in this thread anywhere near a win on a F-Class track, there's no mystery as to why.

Someone such as yourself advised me not to purchase a Weatherby rifle because they are barrel burners. Well guess what, I purchased 6 of them, plus a custom made 257 Weatherby and a Cooper in a 6.5x284. So what if they are barrel burners, "if" it burns out replace it with a new one.

 

[marcoman]

Ask Bill Shehane how many rounds he got out of his barrels. Oh hey, BTW - how long ago was that? I'm thinking maybe we have better calibers these days... There was a time that a 10 inch group at 1000 yards was a dead winner - now it's guaranteed last place.

Hey, if you guys wanna burn up barrels go right on ahead. It's good for the economy. Nobody mentioned it so I thought maybe nobody was thinking about it.

I just don't see the long range ballistic payoff of dropping from a typical .640 BC with a 140 grain 6.5mm round to a typical .535 BC with a 115 grain 6mm round. The velocity spread will just not make up for the difference.

Stick to giving advice in the "precision rifle" forum as it doesn't transcend the two genres.

As for the 6-284 I was close to building one myself but went with a 6mmSLR instead. Reason being I wanted to use bullets in the 105-115gr. range exclusively. I am comfortably achieving velocities in the 3300fps range with 105 Scenars and H100V. I felt the 6SLR was a better fit for a short action than 6-284 with the long heavies, YMMV. As for barrel life who cares? There should be 1500rds worth of shooting in it which is plenty for me as I have numerous rifles that get to make it through rotation including a .240 Wby

 

[Eagleye]

Every time I hear someone mumbling about short barrel life of this chambering, or that chambering, I just laugh.

If one is building one of the large capacity, small bore chamberings, that is one of the accepted consequences.

My personal experience with a good number of alleged "barrel burners" is that with proper care, they tend to last
quite a bit longer than the naysayers would suggest.

For example, I had over 3600 rounds through a 220 Swift before accuracy got bad enough to screw on a new tube.
I own or have have owned several 220 Swifts, 264 Win Mags, 257 bees, a couple of 6.5/284's and a 6/284.

None went south in the round count many said they would. My 26" Pac-Nor in 264 Win Mag is still going strong
[sub-moa] at 2665 rounds. A 6mm AI is shooting under moa at 2927 rounds.

I have not experienced the "velocity spreads" that BadAsMo alludes to in these chamberings either.
I play the 1000 yard game as well, and know what is needed to be in the running. 6/284 often is in the trophy round.

Finally, good barrels are still relatively cheap. A new one is not hard to find and get fitted.
If you have a desire to build one of those hotshots....Go for it!! You'll have fun, with no pain added, lol.

Regards, Dave.

 

[c-fbmi]

Baboon gun is a SS 30" barreled (Bevan King 1" @ muzzle) short 700 SS action blueprinted by Guntech (Dennis) in 22-284. Designed around 80 gn SMK and 90 gn Bergers. The first barrel was twisted @1-8 but at 3700 fps the bullets went about 30 mtrs and turned into gray mist. Have new Kreiger barrel (.875 @ muzzle) to thread and chamber up at 1-12 twist to try out next. I made some assumptions and took some bad advice with the first barrel twist. If it were a 223 I would need 1-8 twist to stabilize 80 -90 gn bullets, but when you add 1000 fps you most certainly do not. My new calculations as well as an article in Rifle last fall have led me to the 1-12 which should work perfectly, if not then a 1-10 is the next purchase. The throat on my reamer is specifically designed for these two bullets so the 80 gn SMK full dia at the junction of the boattail sits at the bottom of the neck when just touching the lands.
This rifle is married into a Rem 700 thumbhole laminated varmint stock with a 40X 2 oz trigger and a PT&G speed lock kit. My hopes aren't ridiculous for this rifle, I want a consistent 3" @ 500 mtrs or thereabouts. I have a Nikon 8-32X50 scope on it now but we'll see how that works out.
The BCs on these two bullets are both over .5 which is astounding for a 22 bullet and I'm hoping for 4000 fps, but we'll see. I make my brass from W-W 284 cases and have about 700 now to start with. I neck them down to 6.5-284 then 6-284 and fireform in my rifle then I inside neck ream and do a full prep on them, trim, flash holes and primer pockets, then I weigh them and pull out the ones that fall in my 1 gn parameter, these I then neck down to 22 cal and neck turn until they chamber, loaded. This gives me .0015 - .002" of neck release. Once they are all fireformed, neck turned and ready for test loads I will anneal the necks and shoulders and off to the races. The left over brass gives me gobs for my 6-284.
The leftover 1-8 barrel with less than 50 rounds through it may become a 222 for heavy bullets or possibly a swift. I already have a 22-250 with a 26" heavy barrel.
I have learned the skills necessary to do this kind of playing so it doesn't cost me a fortune, I do all my own metal work and the wood work required to mate barrel and action to stock. I also know how and will be soon making my own barrels, so really the only cost of playing this game is donor actions and reamers, if you don't count the cost of the tooling. But then if I weren't doing this I'd be wasting my time somewhere else doing something else. Like building and racing cars.......now that REALLY is expensive !!When I get down to rebarrelling it again and working loads I'll start another thread for any who may be interested and I'll try to remember to take lots of photos. Unfortunately I'm 1500 miles from my lathe right now.

I have found the answer to not burning out barrels, it's easy..........own so many rifles that you can't shoot them all and the chances of ever shooting enough out of one to burn it out are about zero.

 

[Kevan]

I have found the answer to not burning out barrels, it's easy..........own so many rifles that you can't shoot them all and the chances of ever shooting enough out of one to burn it out are about zero.

I really like this gem at the end of a good post Douglas...... my thoughts exactly !!

 

[BadAsMo]

My 6x47 Lapua barrel was smoked after 800 rounds with 38 grains of powder, so surely what you guys are rolling with would be much less than 800 - and certainly nowhere near the 1500 rounds claimed above. OK, so be it, you guys accept short barrel life as part of the game, I can accept that too.

What I don't understand is the end objective here. You run ultra hot loads with small calibers to get super high velocities out of light low BC bullets to achieve what exactly?

There's a reason nobody does this in F-Class.. It doesn't work as well as a larger heavier bullet with a higher BC.

Have you all fallen victim hook line and sinker to the BS propagated by the marketing departments of the ammo manufacturers? Sure they tell stories of ultra flat high velocity rounds, but they never mention the bad news do they? It's called wind drift. Dealing with wind is a much more complicated and variable component than elevation. These rounds you are pushing here will only be flatter to about 500 yards (at most) and after that the larger high BC bullet will shoot flatter. Plus compare the wind drift numbers and the wind drift of the larger high BC round will be much less even if it does not start out as fast. So what good is short range flat trajectory if your wind drift is huge?

The competition guys know this and go the other way completely, because they want to win. You show up at an F-Class match with these kind of rifles and you'll get your butts handed to you in a hand basket all day long.

Hey, we are all entitled to shoot whatever we want for our own reasons. Just don't pretend you are ahead of the curve doing what you do because it's all been done and the competition crowd is way past it.

If you guys wanna light your cigars with $100 bills too, hey it's your money.

 

[c-fbmi]

The truth is Kevan if I shot one rifle a day for a year I wouldn't get 3 days with every rifle in the same year, and that's if I didn't buy or build any more. My chances of shooting out another rifle, even a favorite, in the rest of my lifetime are about zero.

 

[c-fbmi]

My 6x47 Lapua barrel was smoked after 800 rounds with 38 grains of powder, so surely what you guys are rolling with would be much less than 800 - and certainly nowhere near the 1500 rounds claimed above. OK, so be it, you guys accept short barrel life as part of the game, I can accept that too.

What I don't understand is the end objective here. You run ultra hot loads with small calibers to get super high velocities out of light low BC bullets to achieve what exactly?

There's a reason nobody does this in F-Class.. It doesn't work as well as a larger heavier bullet with a higher BC.

Have you all fallen victim hook line and sinker to the BS propagated by the marketing departments of the ammo manufacturers? Sure they tell stories of ultra flat high velocity rounds, but they never mention the bad news do they? It's called wind drift. dealing with wind is a much more complicated component than elevation. These rounds you are pushing here will only be flatter to about 500 yards and after that the larger high BC bullet will shoot flatter. Plus compare the wind drift numbers and the wind drift of the larger high BC round will be much less. So what goo is short range flat trajectory if your wind drift is huge?

The competition guys know this and go the other way completely, because they want to win. You show up at an F-Class match with these kind of rifles and you'll get your butts handed to you in a hand basket all day long.

Hey, we are all entitled to shoot whatever we want for our own reasons. Just don't pretend you are ahead of the curve doing what you do because it's all been done and the competition crowd is way past it.

Do you guys light your cigars with $100 bills too?

Did it ever occur to you that not all of us shoot competition any more, and that most game by 99% is taken inside your 500 meter stated advantage range. By the way I'd be happy to buy all your "shot out" barrels for 50 bucks each. There is also a thing in hunting called impact velocity and expansion threshold which doesn't apply to paper punching. Regardless you have to see what an 80 gn bullet from a 6-284 does to a coyote at 300 mtrs to appreciate it !!

 

[marcoman]

My 6x47 Lapua barrel was smoked after 800 rounds with 38 grains of powder, so surely what you guys are rolling with would be much less than 800 - and certainly nowhere near the 1500 rounds claimed above. OK, so be it, you guys accept short barrel life as part of the game, I can accept that too.

What I don't understand is the end objective here. You run ultra hot loads with small calibers to get super high velocities out of light low BC bullets to achieve what exactly?

There's a reason nobody does this in F-Class.. It doesn't work as well as a larger heavier bullet with a higher BC.

Have you all fallen victim hook line and sinker to the BS propagated by the marketing departments of the ammo manufacturers? Sure they tell stories of ultra flat high velocity rounds, but they never mention the bad news do they? It's called wind drift. Dealing with wind is a much more complicated and variable component than elevation. These rounds you are pushing here will only be flatter to about 500 yards (at most) and after that the larger high BC bullet will shoot flatter. Plus compare the wind drift numbers and the wind drift of the larger high BC round will be much less even if it does not start out as fast. So what good is short range flat trajectory if your wind drift is huge?

The competition guys know this and go the other way completely, because they want to win. You show up at an F-Class match with these kind of rifles and you'll get your butts handed to you in a hand basket all day long.

Hey, we are all entitled to shoot whatever we want for our own reasons. Just don't pretend you are ahead of the curve doing what you do because it's all been done and the competition crowd is way past it.

If you guys wanna light your cigars with $100 bills too, hey it's your money.

As usual your points are valid but realize that this is a discussion of said cartridge as it applies to a typical hunting scenario. Most guys dont care about what happens past 5-600 yds as most shooting will be done well inside that with hold-overs as opposed to dialing elevation. MPBR is more important in the hunting/sporting context than any ballistic advantage that may occur at F-class distances.

 

[BadAsMo]

As usual your points are valid but realize that this is a discussion of said cartridge as it applies to a typical hunting scenario. Most guys dont care about what happens past 5-600 yds as most shooting will be done well inside that with hold-overs as opposed to dialing elevation. MPBR is more important in the hunting/sporting context than any ballistic advantage that may occur at F-class distances.

Now see, this is exactly my point though guys. You are basing the advantage of these high velocity rounds based on trajectory alone. When you run the numbers on wind drift you find that wind will be the cause of a missed shot well before the difference in your come ups do. Sure you might take 1 MOA off the trajectory but then add 3 MOA to the wind call.

Well hey if you drive them hard enough you can beat the wind too at short range so I'll give ya that.

So what powders burn slow enough for these over bore rounds anyway? Oak's probably a bit on the slow side... How about Pine or maybe Fur, Balsa's way too fast eh? Just kidding. I had to squeeze that in. Interesting discussion though.

 

[c-fbmi]

I think you had better go back to your wind drift charts and basic math BadAsMo, we're not talking a .6 BC as compared to a .2 BC and wind drift is very much affected by time of flight. If I drive a or .45 BC bullet at 3600 fps, are you trying to say that I will have more wind drift than a .6 BC bullet at 3000 fps over 500 mtrs? The next question you must ask is what happens when you take that .6 or .65 BC bullet and drive it to 35-3600 fps ala 6.5 and 7mm RUMs.............You really need to get out a little more and away from your F-class obsession, it may open your mind up a bit......BCs aren't the "end all, be all" of the shooting sports, there are so many other factors involved it would boggle your mind. Just another note regarding BCs you can't believe the number the manufacturers assign as a BC to their bullets, did you know that BCs change with altitude and velocity and some even say with different twists, did they teach you that in F-class school.
Seriously BadAsMo, you need to get out of your F-class rut and open up your mind a bit, that is only one small fraction of the shooting discipline and firearm and ballistics knowledge in general. What you have learned there is valuable, but there is so much more to learn about external and terminal ballistics.
Just as an aside I bet I can hit more coyotes at 300 mtrs in an undetermined crosswind with my 6-284 than you can shoot 10s or whatever with your F-class rifle.

 

[BadAsMo]

Actually I quite think the reverse is true.
If the 6-284 was "all that" it would be popular on the F-Class side of the fence.

A guy can convince himself of many things out there on the hunt, but the proving ground is on the range, shoulder to shoulder. If it has no place there, then it has no place in the field IMO.

 

[yodave]

Actually I quite think the reverse is true.
If the 6-284 was "all that" it would be popular on the F-Class side of the fence.

A guy can convince himself of many things out there on the hunt, but the proving ground is on the range, shoulder to shoulder. If it has no place there, then it has no place in the field IMO.

Looks to me that you have no place in the hunting rifle forum.........your comparing apples and oranges and taking away from an awesome discussion with your uneducated opinions. Its great you have read a lot about f class and know a thing or two, maybe its time you just follow and read the hunting rifle threads and maybe learn a thing or two. hunting rifles might see 20-30 rounds a year, so how many years is the barrel going to last??? Hunting bullets are built to perform much differently then target bullets, expansion and weight retention are far more important then BC values, we shoot for lungs and hearts.....not V bulls.....you 3 ring caused by a misjudging the wind still results in a kill on our playing field.....

Back the original thread, I have a 6mm-06AI around here that I but together last year but haven't played with it much, your really making me think of the short action possibilities now though...........

 

[Kevan]

A guy can convince himself of many things out there on the hunt, but the proving ground is on the range, shoulder to shoulder. If it has no place there, then it has no place in the field IMO.

I shoot F-class and I hunt as well, but I do not agree with the above statement...

 

[sorth]

My 6-284 has a 26" barrel and I am shooting 115 VLD's at 3060 fps out of it, it is built on a long action. I have a 6X47 Lapua also with a 26" barrel and it is shooting 105 Hybrid's at 3080 fps.

 

[c-fbmi]

Actually I quite think the reverse is true.
If the 6-284 was "all that" it would be popular on the F-Class side of the fence.

A guy can convince himself of many things out there on the hunt, but the proving ground is on the range, shoulder to shoulder. If it has no place there, then it has no place in the field IMO.

You are so hung up on this F-class obsession that you have your thinking turned 180 degrees my friend...........the real proving ground is NOT on the range but in the field. F-class is a GAME, like video games and has no real meaning............Ah hell I give up, go play your video games and leave the hunting to those of us who actually do it...........