mebiuspower
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Morontario
I don't understand the "Glock Advantage"...
- Thread starter mini15
- Start date
- Status
In a LEM with decocker the operator basically chooses how to carry the weapon. I can be carried in cocked and ready or decocked, this will change the first pull.
V8 is more like DAO than LEM. LEM (in most variants) does not come with decocking lever, this is explained in different other forums dedicated to HK firearms, and this changes the way the firearm is used.
The difference is clear, as the gun has a decocking lever, in most cases the gun is holstered and carried in decocked mode, this means the first pull is going to be as in a DA/SA gun, with a 12 lbs pull, until the LEM (combat trigger) engages with the 2 round, and starts functioning as a GLOCK TRIGGER. This is explained in the video I posted earlier.
The lem with decocker is a great idea. Unfortunately it is not very popular, mostly due to HK not being so popular as other makes. In my humble opinion the LEM with decocker could be one of the best 'work oriented' triggers ever created for their inherent safety and ease of use.
In USP this is variant 8, (lem with decocker) in other version,like P30 this is variant 0 (lem with decocker) which is only used for certain agencies.
Other variants:
V1 V2 and now V4 (very new) are only LEM with no decocking lever, hence they are carried cocked and loaded and holstered this way (like a Glock), the only way to shoot this gun in a DAO mode is by depressing the trigger twice, this can happen ONLY if the shot is not fired/light strike/etc.This is called second strike capability. This is also explained in the video I posted earlier.
Note that all variants with no decocking lever are not called DAO by HK, they call this combat trigger, since the gun is always ready to shoot, almost like a SA gun.
This is very well explained in the manual you get with the gun as well. For some reason I find discrepancies between the US version and German sites, so it is hard to put a link including all this info. I might just take a photo of the manual later on.
For Sig:
DAK is not the same as the DAO. Sig has 3 difference trigger variants : DAK, DAO and DA/SA. Da/Sa and Dak can be reverse/modifed to be either one. DAO cannot.
The P250 uses DAO, the P229/226 uses DA/SA or DAK.
I can see a lot of confusion with that.
I hope that helps.
V8 is more like DAO than LEM. LEM (in most variants) does not come with decocking lever, this is explained in different other forums dedicated to HK firearms, and this changes the way the firearm is used.
The difference is clear, as the gun has a decocking lever, in most cases the gun is holstered and carried in decocked mode, this means the first pull is going to be as in a DA/SA gun, with a 12 lbs pull, until the LEM (combat trigger) engages with the 2 round, and starts functioning as a GLOCK TRIGGER. This is explained in the video I posted earlier.
The lem with decocker is a great idea. Unfortunately it is not very popular, mostly due to HK not being so popular as other makes. In my humble opinion the LEM with decocker could be one of the best 'work oriented' triggers ever created for their inherent safety and ease of use.
In USP this is variant 8, (lem with decocker) in other version,like P30 this is variant 0 (lem with decocker) which is only used for certain agencies.
Other variants:
V1 V2 and now V4 (very new) are only LEM with no decocking lever, hence they are carried cocked and loaded and holstered this way (like a Glock), the only way to shoot this gun in a DAO mode is by depressing the trigger twice, this can happen ONLY if the shot is not fired/light strike/etc.This is called second strike capability. This is also explained in the video I posted earlier.
Note that all variants with no decocking lever are not called DAO by HK, they call this combat trigger, since the gun is always ready to shoot, almost like a SA gun.
This is very well explained in the manual you get with the gun as well. For some reason I find discrepancies between the US version and German sites, so it is hard to put a link including all this info. I might just take a photo of the manual later on.
For Sig:
DAK is not the same as the DAO. Sig has 3 difference trigger variants : DAK, DAO and DA/SA. Da/Sa and Dak can be reverse/modifed to be either one. DAO cannot.
The P250 uses DAO, the P229/226 uses DA/SA or DAK.
I can see a lot of confusion with that.
I hope that helps.
Last edited:
Good grip mechanics should not really involve the thumbs at all in terms of gripping pressure.
The following is for high-speed, accurate shooting. Those of you who are strictly bulls-eye shooters, you might want to bail now.
The strong side thumb should be held high, with the beaver-tail or tang wedged down into the web of the hand. This thumb will automatically index during the draw to the space above the thumb safety (1911) or in the case of a Glock or other striker-fired, non-external safety pistol, roughly just above the bottom edge of the slide. The base knuckle of the weak side thumb then fits into the space provided by the middle knuckle of the strong side thumb and the heel of this hand makes full contact with the pistols grip on that side. This automatically rotates the weak side wrist downwards to create a strong off-set pivot, which is where much of the recoil control comes from.
While the safety is pressed down in the last few inches of the mount (or not if it's not a 1911) as the entire grip tightens up, the strong side thumb actually comes to rest on top of the weak side thumb, with both thumbs pointing at the target but not putting pressure on anything. Pressure in the grip should come from the fingers squeezing in towards the palms; fore and aft for strong side and side to side for weak side. In fact, if thumb pressure is applied with the strong hand it can result in an uneven grip, which can lead to shot deflection. You may not notice this for close work, but if you have to shoot very difficult targets or distant ones (like 50 meters) you may find it difficult to hold your sights in an acceptable wobble zone. Also, if you have to shoot single-hand unsupported, thumb pressure will really start to show itself in the form of horizontal wobble.
This is why a thumb safety or the absence of a thumb safety is irrelevant. With good grip mechanics the draw and grip technique is the same no matter what the platform is. There is no time penalty to a thumb safety. The fundamentals of trigger management are also the same, so from a pure shooting mechanics point of view, the flavor of gun you use doesn't matter.
In terms of inherent safety: I wouldn't want to accidentally drop a loaded, safety off series 70 1911 on a concrete floor, whereas you could probably throw a loaded Glock off of a ten story building and it wouldn't go off. Unless of course it somehow hit a tree branch on the way down on just the right angle ;-)
9
The following is for high-speed, accurate shooting. Those of you who are strictly bulls-eye shooters, you might want to bail now.
The strong side thumb should be held high, with the beaver-tail or tang wedged down into the web of the hand. This thumb will automatically index during the draw to the space above the thumb safety (1911) or in the case of a Glock or other striker-fired, non-external safety pistol, roughly just above the bottom edge of the slide. The base knuckle of the weak side thumb then fits into the space provided by the middle knuckle of the strong side thumb and the heel of this hand makes full contact with the pistols grip on that side. This automatically rotates the weak side wrist downwards to create a strong off-set pivot, which is where much of the recoil control comes from.
While the safety is pressed down in the last few inches of the mount (or not if it's not a 1911) as the entire grip tightens up, the strong side thumb actually comes to rest on top of the weak side thumb, with both thumbs pointing at the target but not putting pressure on anything. Pressure in the grip should come from the fingers squeezing in towards the palms; fore and aft for strong side and side to side for weak side. In fact, if thumb pressure is applied with the strong hand it can result in an uneven grip, which can lead to shot deflection. You may not notice this for close work, but if you have to shoot very difficult targets or distant ones (like 50 meters) you may find it difficult to hold your sights in an acceptable wobble zone. Also, if you have to shoot single-hand unsupported, thumb pressure will really start to show itself in the form of horizontal wobble.
This is why a thumb safety or the absence of a thumb safety is irrelevant. With good grip mechanics the draw and grip technique is the same no matter what the platform is. There is no time penalty to a thumb safety. The fundamentals of trigger management are also the same, so from a pure shooting mechanics point of view, the flavor of gun you use doesn't matter.
In terms of inherent safety: I wouldn't want to accidentally drop a loaded, safety off series 70 1911 on a concrete floor, whereas you could probably throw a loaded Glock off of a ten story building and it wouldn't go off. Unless of course it somehow hit a tree branch on the way down on just the right angle ;-)
9
Last edited:
I never had a range session at the academy without an AD/ND from a Glock, never any other handgun. I always asked cops with a Glock to raise their hand, when they did I sent them as far down the line to another instructor as physically possible.
The only policeman shot on my Patrol shift was by his partner, yep, with a .40 Glock.
Not sure why a Glock has been the only handgun involved in these real world incidents but they were.
I personally like the handgun and have tried on several occasions to buy one. I just couldn't make myself stick it in my waistband however, so it was useless to me.
The only policeman shot on my Patrol shift was by his partner, yep, with a .40 Glock.
Not sure why a Glock has been the only handgun involved in these real world incidents but they were.
I personally like the handgun and have tried on several occasions to buy one. I just couldn't make myself stick it in my waistband however, so it was useless to me.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
There's a couple people in the know in this thread. Open your ears and mind and start listening to them.
Like Rob said, learn how to shoot!
Like Rob said, learn how to shoot!
Yep and then there's is an HK salesman....
not at all, why did you say that? In fact I was answering adding valuable information.
Someone posted incomplete information about the variants so I thought in posting some more just to clarify.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are calling me a HK salesman because I explained how the HK variants work.
I am giving information out, not selling anything nor bashing the Glock (which I like). Is that a crime?
Someone posted incomplete information about the variants so I thought in posting some more just to clarify.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are calling me a HK salesman because I explained how the HK variants work.
I am giving information out, not selling anything nor bashing the Glock (which I like). Is that a crime?
Last edited:
)
NavyCuda, how exactly is this thumb support idea superior to just gripping the gun properly? I regularly teach people, to the tune of thousands a year, how to properly grip a gun. It doesn't matter hand size, simply grip the gun properly. There is a reason why one grip has risen to the top of the shooting world, across all types of shooting, it's because it works.
I think the "advantage" (no external safety) is a marketing strategy to target those interested in the glock as a tactical or home defense option. In Canada those are not really options as we can only legally own handguns for target, competition, and collecting. So to us, it really is not an advantage. The majority of Glocks english speaking customers live south of the 49 and tactical and home defense are major contributing factors in handgun selection.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
I've realised the confusion. The orginal arguement that I was replying too suggested that a mechanical thumb safety would take longer than a Glock to be ready to fire. My arguement was that with the thumb safety being part of how you grip the 1911, there would be no time loss to disengage the safety if your training is adequate.
Personally, I find that gripping the 1911, locking my thumb against the safety is better for me than pushing my thumb down out of the way of the slide lock of other designs. Each to their own, my methods work for me but I could be entirely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.
Wow, this post is the only one that is truly entertaining in this whole thread. Would any LEO like to comment on the apparent inability to handle a Glock safely? I luv this post, it brought a tear to my eye, it was so funny... sigh.
You're right, a proper 1911 grip would not involve a time penalty when running a 1911. What is left is the possibility of failing to disengage the safety. If we remove that then the question is what benefit does the manual safety provide in the first place?? With that. point aside, a 1911 for example is still overly complex, overweight, poor capacity, and lacking in reliability. Does this make the "glock advantage" a little easier to see?
Tdc
- Status
