Is the K31 a Bolt Action Rifle? DEBATE

smellie said:
There was also a technique practised at th time of the Great War for speeding-up an SMLE.

It involved SLAPPING the bolt rearward and forward.

When the rifle comes off your shoulder from the recoil, you PIVOT your right hand on the wrist and flip the bolt upward with the index fingr, carry it rearward with the hand and REVERSE the hand.

You then SLAP the bolt forward with the heel of the thumb while your hand is in motion, heading down to take up the trigger.

The 60-degree bolt of the SMLE finds its spot and slips into place as your finger touches the trigger to take up the slack.

One touch and she's gone.

Repeat as necessary or until Fritz quits.



I have two excellent books in my collection. One is called "The Retreat From Mons" and it is written by a junior (Compny-grade) British officer who took part in that series of frontier engagements at the beginning of the Great War. The other is called "The Advance From Mons" and it was written in the early 1920s by a Company-grade young German officer. The two men were, at times, less than 400 yards apart. It is absolutely fascinating to read of the SAME engagement from two opposing points of view. Even more interesting is the fact that each book CONFIRMS the other.
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And here lies a Service Rifle at war,....thank you Smellie.

Like someone once said... "the Kaisers Army of 1914 found the British Tommy somewhat of an obscure funny looking little fellow. Much like a gopher in his forage cap. They were not laughing as much however,... when they met the S.M.L.E. at Mons in the hands of Britain's tiny, well trained Army of 1914".

Now as to the Swiss War Rifle(what's that?:p),......it is not a bolt gun,.. it is a push pull gun, otherwise the rotating bolt lock up on the Winchester pump shotgun is a bolt gun as well. Is it merely a bolt gun because we grasp the bolt? Many action types utilize bolts, rotated and locked into place by various means. An AR-15 is actually a gas operated bolt action rifle is it not? It's lock up is by bolt rotating into battery.
A Mossberg shottie, a Remington 870, an FN FAL, an SKS well now here's block rifles....................
 
is that someone can remind me of the sentence famous Swiss military or political to a German who had threatened to invade the Swiss

of its kind,
"Each of my men draw a mag and go home"
 
@ LAVOLTIGES:

That was during the Kaiser's visit to Switzerland, prior to the start of the Great War.

The Kaiser was amused to see the Swiss with their funny long rifles (about 6 inches longer than the German rifle), zooming about on their bicycles. It was the time of the Swiss summer manoeuvres.

The Kaiser was told that Switzerland could, if necessary, put a million men into the field. He replied by asking "What will you do if I send TWO million of my men across your border?" This was the Kaiser's idea of a friendly question during a "goodwill" visit.

The Swiss officer replied quietly, "Each of my men will fire two shots and go home!"

Germany never did invade Switzerland.

The problem was that the Swiss likely could have PROVED that. Like the British, they trained with live ammunition and enough of it. Both armies were well-practised in precision-grade shooting. On the other hand, German standards of marksmanship were (and remain today) much lower; at 100 metres, a German solider, even today, shoots from the hip. This is a traditional holdover from the days of the gas-spitting Dreyse Zundnadelgewehr of 1841. At Mons in 1914, the British reported seeing the same thing: German soldiers firing from the hip. The British were hiding behind bushes and rocks, rapid-firing from a prone position. German casualties were shocking.
 
Interesting they were still shooting from the hip at the start of WWI. The Dreyse by all accounts was a terrible thing to hold near your face when firing.
 
kennymo said:
Interesting they were still shooting from the hip at the start of WWI. The Dreyse by all accounts was a terrible thing to hold near your face when firing.
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militaries of the world hold on to procedures way too long:

in north africa, it was discovered by the brits that each of their gun crews seemed to have a man who didnt actually have a job to do. after much aggravation, a manual was found and the spare mans job description located, turns out he was to be tending the long since replaced horses

way back when, it was thought that cholera could be prevented by keeping your abdomen warm, then we discovered germ theory, then a bit later smokeless powders were adopted by the world (just to show how long ago this was)
armies would issue a flannel wrap for your abdomen called a cholera belt as it was a major problem. i was shopping for surplus a couple of years ago and i found a bunch of un issued flannel cholera belts made for the german army, and apon inspection, they were all made in the mid 1970s
 
When Panzer Lehr was stationed at CFB Shilo, I had several friends in the Bundeswehr.

They all told me the same thing: at 100 metres, the G-3 came off the shoulder, got switched to FA and fired from the hip.

They are still doing it, even though it has not been necessary since about 1875!

Tradition is wonderful, but you have to think about the traditions...... once in a while.

Listen to military music: it is positively anachronistic. As one example, the Grenadier Guards have been using the same march-past since about 1750. Austria is still using the marches which Kaiser Franz Josef I asked Franz Lehar to write. The Germans have on particular march (Der Alte Dessauer) which actually goes back to the Landsknecht of the late Middle Ages; the vocal form is still called "Der Landsknechtlied". Tradition is WONDERFUL!

The problem in Canada is that the Lieberals seem to have trashed most of ours.
 
buffdog said:
,
Now for the SECOND part of something raised, that is Speed. I would venture that the SMLE can get SIX rounds off faster than the K-31.

I can hear the howls right now, but there is a reason for my Thesis. The K-31, by design, is a straight pull rifle, and therefore is operated by pushing and pulling the bolt which gives a very fast time to reload the chamber. However, it is also a design that you have to operate the bolt by taking your hand off the trigger, raising your hand upwards to grasp and operate the bolt, then move your hand downwards, find the trigger, align your sights with the target and pull the trigger.

The SMLE / Lee-Enfield bolt is normally operated by taking your hand off the trigger, reaching up to grasp the bolt, lift the bolt, pull backwards, push forwards and down, then bring your hand back to the wrist to grasp the trigger, align your sights and pull the trigger to fire the rifle. It would seem that this would take longer, and in fact, it does.

Now, pay attention, because there is a test on this later. (Anyone with a SMLE or Lee-Enfield is going to try this if they do not know the technique.)

For really fast bolt manipulation with the SMLE or Lee-Enfield, you grasp the knob of the bolt with your thumb and index finger, and you DO NOT LET GO OF IT. After firing a round, you lift the bolt, manipulate it to eject the empty and chamber a new cartridge, and as you are pushing the bolt forward and down, you align the sights on the target. As your right hand comes down to lock the bolt, the MIDDLE FINGER is used to hit the trigger, and the cycle starts again.

If you want to argue the difference in initial magazine capacity, the K-31 is loading 6 rounds at a time an the SMLE is loading only five. Thus, within four reloads, or the first 30 rounds, the number of rounds reloaded will be equal. I would still bet on the SMLE, because of the Charger design. The Swiss charger must be removed from the action manually which will take a bit of time. The SMLE charger can be ejected out of the charger guide simply by closing the bolt to chamber a cartridge.

By the way, there is a bit faster way to get more rounds per minute out of a SMLE. You load 10 and fire 6 then load 5 and fire 6 and keep going until empty or the minute is up. While this is slightly faster for more rounds fired, it is NOT what the mad minute was originated for. Let us say you have a Company of 100 men on the Line with a mass charge coming at you. 100 men times 10 rounds per rifle is 1000 available rounds. Why would you fire 6 times and then reload? That would mean that 400 available rounds would NOT have been fired at the Enemy in a critical situation. (I had a wonderful argument a while ago on exactly this point.)
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have practiced this for a few hours last night(no rds) but found i was almost twice as fast compared to the "normal" way of working the bolt. have a bloody blister on the inside of my thumb, and blood all over the cocking handle and mags. i don`t have any chargers yet, so i had to change mags. i know it will slow down somewhat with the recoil from live, but so will the "normal" way. thanks buff dog, i may have found my new way of loading.
 
smellie said:
When Panzer Lehr was stationed at CFB Shilo, I had several friends in the Bundeswehr.

They all told me the same thing: at 100 metres, the G-3 came off the shoulder, got switched to FA and fired from the hip.

They are still doing it, even though it has not been necessary since about 1875!

Tradition is wonderful, but you have to think about the traditions...... once in a while.

Listen to military music: it is positively anachronistic. As one example, the Grenadier Guards have been using the same march-past since about 1750. Austria is still using the marches which Kaiser Franz Josef I asked Franz Lehar to write. The Germans have on particular march (Der Alte Dessauer) which actually goes back to the Landsknecht of the late Middle Ages; the vocal form is still called "Der Landsknechtlied". Tradition is WONDERFUL!

The problem in Canada is that the Lieberals seem to have trashed most of ours.
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That might be true of the Panzer troops, but the Germans do have a tradition of markmanship, besides the advancing assault.
See these translations of WWII Wermacht manuals.






That comment about the Grenadier Guards bought back a lot of memories.
 
diopter said:
In the K31, the forward movement of the fining pin is used to ensure bolt is fully locked before firing pin is free to hit the primer.
That's when the huge safety ring comes in handy to re-#### the bolt.
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The Ross works the same way. If insufficiently closed the rifle will attempt to close itself upon firing. I know other rifles will have this same affect; my Remington 722 will attempt to close itself if fired with the bolt partially closed. However, I do wish more rifles had the ability to re-####. Enfields, Mosins and K31s (among others) have the right idea in my opinion.
 
Blastattack said:
The Ross works the same way. If insufficiently closed the rifle will attempt to close itself upon firing. I know other rifles will have this same affect; my Remington 722 will attempt to close itself if fired with the bolt partially closed. However, I do wish more rifles had the ability to re-####. Enfields, Mosins and K31s (among others) have the right idea in my opinion.
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:agree: I prefer rifles that you can silent #### when poach....er I mean hunting with.;)
I've only a few rifles now that don't have exposed hammers or cocking pieces.
:)
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
:agree: I prefer rifles that you can silent #### when poach....er I mean hunting with.;)
I've only a few rifles now that don't have exposed hammers or cocking pieces.
:)
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Kind of a nice feature I think. I do quite like my new K31 as it can be readily carried locked and loaded; yet with a pull and twist, and very little noise, she is ready to fire.
 
The other nice thing about the Enfield is that you can put it on half #### and lock the action completely.

This debate is making it hard to not buy a K31. Especially since I've just bought a new-to-me vehicle this past week.
 
I've been to the ottawa area milsurp shoot and I'll tell you all right now. The worst k31 shooter scored higher accuracy than the best lee enfield shooter. Time was not really a factor - I believe for the average person a lee enfield can fire 10 rounds MUCH faster than the k31. But in accuracy the swiss know no milsurp rival, save from their own brothers shooting 6.5x55.

I don't know where all the patriotic chest thumping about "it saw combat!" comes from. Just because it was used in a war we won, doesn't mean it was the best rifle available. I doubt the commonwealth could have afforded to produce k31s en masse, so it's a moot point anyway!
 
The only negative really about the K31 is the ammo availability situation and cost. And yes, I know you can reload the calibre.

But I can buy .303 ammo at Crappy Tire...and that is a factor for me.
 
cantom said:
The only negative really about the K31 is the ammo availability situation and cost. And yes, I know you can reload the calibre.

But I can buy .303 ammo at Crappy Tire...and that is a factor for me.
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This is currently rumor and speculation, but apparently the Calgary Shooting Center has 2 seacans of GP11 inbound, and are aiming for $0.35 a round.
 
smellie said:
I have two excellent books in my collection. One is called "The Retreat From Mons" and it is written by a junior (Compny-grade) British officer who took part in that series of frontier engagements at the beginning of the Great War. The other is called "The Advance From Mons" and it was written in the early 1920s by a Company-grade young German officer. The two men were, at times, less than 400 yards apart. It is absolutely fascinating to read of the SAME engagement from two opposing points of view. Even more interesting is the fact that each book CONFIRMS the other.
Click to expand...

Is that the one where he finds his battalion commander in tears, saying, "my beautiful battalion is destroyed!" If it is, I've always remembered the closing line to that section where he says, "there is no denying we have suffered a defeat, a heavy defeat, and at the hands of English whom we laughed at." Going from memory there. Not the first time people have under-estimated their enemies after all!

Fire was opened on them at about 1000 yards by volley IIRC. That was the advance to the Conde Canal, again IRRC.

600 men at 15 rounds a minute is the equivalent of 30 Vickers guns in volume of fire. Funny how the British brass hats took years to understand that the reverse was also true!
 
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