Tavor: Time To **** Or Get Off The Pot!

[One Lung Wonder]

Hey One, I have have a few Tan Tavor's on order, we'll grab one and head out to SPGR, should be early Jan (hope Jon an North Sylva sends them early....).

I have an Eotech EXPS3-0 and G33 magnifier we can use but if you want to bring something else, go for it! The higher the grain ammo the better. Ill bring a few types of ammo but around 75g seems ideal.

Good shooting by TV but that large green backpack is a keg he travels with (I tease I tease).

Goddammitalltohell. I couldn't stand all the peer pressure from the unsavoury kids on the internet and was FORCED to buy one today. The old lady is going to kill me and no doubt it will be justifiable! It is all TV's fault!!!

Mine came in black. It also came with aftermarket flip-up sights in addition to the integral ones. I hope they don't work like the irons on the AR15 - I just couldn't zero mine on the AR and getting a proper 'battle zero' was never properly explained to me - so I just threw a scope on it and dialled it in...

When your heavy metal comes in Stormy, let's hit the range! The rest of you had better start digging; fox holes or start sandbagging your entrenchments! Hot lead and cold BS will be flying in all directions!!!

 

[cr5]

Oh my yes the youtubes. I do that sometimes. I also like my low-power variables.

Here's the closest I came to a formal accuracy report last year. . . maybe?

CGN's embed seems funny on the ipad.

http://vimeo.com/56663525


[video=vimeo;56663525]http://vimeo.com/56663525[/video]

What were all those other holes?
Just put 10 into the same paper then pick 4 that are close to each other?
I don't expect the Tavor to produce tight groups and I'm not bashing it for not doing it but if you want to show it's accuracy then do it right. A couple targets with 5-10 rounds in them with all the rounds hitting close to each other. What you show in the video doesn't show much other than it can put 9 or 10 into the same paper at 100yds.
Don't get me wrong, I've said it before and I'm saying it again, I like the Tavor and some day I may own one but I accept that it isn't going to make tight groups and that it is a 2-3 MOA rifle. I'm sure it can shoot better if someone puts in the time to develop a good handload or tries a bunch of different factory loads until a brand and weight is found that the barrel likes.

 

[beltfed]

I had one of the early Tavors in the country and maybe it was that particular rifle, but I very much doubt it -That one was not accurate enough for me to keep. Describing it as a 4 moa gun at 100m would be... Extremely generous.
I put factory match ammo (GP-90 & black hills 68 + 77gr HPBT) as well as hand loads with 69 & 77gr. SMKs in addition to Hornady 60gr. AMAX and 68 & 75gr. HPBTs through it. If it printed a 2.5" group with 10 rounds I would have happily lived with it.
As always ymmv. Good luck if you get one - and do us a favour and do an unbiased review if you have the time and inclination.

Lots of people will tell you different stories about accuracy of their individual rifle. Mine hits what I aim at.

Hmmm...
I recall you didn't hit much at the CDTSA Military shoot this summer...or was that a zeroing/ammo issue?

 

[mikethebike]

Well like I said I'm hitting 8 moa with mine, my wife a little better. If I was at 4 moa I'd be happy, but right now I'm not. Maybe with the new trigger it'll become a 4 moa? dunno...

 

[cr5]

Well like I said I'm hitting 8 moa with mine, my wife a little better. If I was at 4 moa I'd be happy, but right now I'm not. Maybe with the new trigger it'll become a 4 moa? dunno...

I can't see how a new trigger is going to drop 4 inches off your groups. I would think it more likely you will see a 1 MOA improvement. That may or may not be a worthwhile $300 for you but I don't think so.
Is that 8 MOA shooting off sandbags? What optic? Have you tried different ammo?
8 MOA sounds pretty bad. I'm pretty sure the ones I've shot were doing better than that.

 

[mikethebike]

I can't see how a new trigger is going to drop 4 inches off your groups. I would think it more likely you will see a 1 MOA improvement. That may or may not be a worthwhile $300 for you but I don't think so.
Is that 8 MOA shooting off sandbags? What optic?

Yep 8 moa group on a shooting bench with front sandbags with specterDR 4x optics. My wife gets a 5-6 moa group doing the same, she's a far better shooter than me. So maybe out of an expert shooter you're looking at a 4 moa rifle at most.
I count all my shots in a 10 shot groups thats how I calculate accuracy on a rifle, not a 3 shot group, not a 5 shot group, not best out of 3 nor the best of 4 out of 10 shot in a group, I don't do that bullshiat stuff thats just plain lying to yourself. Anyone else boasting 1 moa, I dunno what they're smoking. I believe when it comes to shooting all shots count even flyers.

 

[mikethebike]

Oh my yes the youtubes. I do that sometimes. I also like my low-power variables.

Here's the closest I came to a formal accuracy report last year. . . maybe?

CGN's embed seems funny on the ipad.

http://vimeo.com/56663525


[video=vimeo;56663525]http://vimeo.com/56663525[/video]

looks more like 7 moa to me. and yes I get the best results with the zombie ammo too (or the vmax ammo) so far.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

And this, Gentlemen, is EXACTLY why I bought my Tavor.



The reason the Tavor hasn't been fully vetted in the accuracy department is because doing so is going to be a major PITA. Look at that pig - she is not going to sit pretty on the sandbags for a session off the bench! Custom sandbags are being made for me now by my talented and beautiful wife! Second of all the rifle appeals mostly to the younger run n' gun crowd and they have no interest in accuracy the way us old slow fire stubfarts do. Once I am sandbagged and benched - this thing starts eating precision handloads. A top notch AR15 will give you crappy groups if you test it under crappy conditions!

Those groups that TV shot are pretty damn good considering his optics and improvised rests. Given better conditions he would have probably tightened them up a bit. Question, TV - how did you sling yours up? I like conventional GI slings and swivels - do you have any info on that?

I want this gun to be the next AR15: I want aftermarket heavy barrels, match triggers, and all the things that made the AR a huge success. The ergonomics on this thing can't be beat, that's for sure...

 

[JBD]

This is an old post that I am bringing back from the dead. My Tavor is as accurate as most rack grade AR 15. It is difficult gun to get it reach its mechanical accuracy. The sight radius is pretty short and the trigger is heavy and creepy.

Accuracy update on the Tavor tar 21. I spent sometime dryfiring my Tavor and the trigger improved quite a bit. I decided to zero at 100 yards and I noticed that the groups were much improved. I am using an LMT tactical rear iron sight and a utg front sight. These groups both measured 1.75 Inches and were shot at 100 yards.

 

[dahs]

Sounds like these things are shotguns that pattern, one pellet at a time. Making 180-Series Mini-14's look like F-Class rigs. What a disappointing way to spend $2500.

 

[TV-PressPass]

I recall you didn't hit much at the CDTSA Military shoot this summer...or was that a zeroing/ammo issue?

More accurately, mine hits what I aim at now.

I have a terrible habit of trying new optics without proper zeroing. It's a condition. I'm getting treatment by selling alternate optics.

Congrats on your new rifle OP!

 

[Dr.Lector]

You know a $3k+ rifle sucks sh!t
when people in this thread call it a pellet by pellet shotgun,
or when a mini14 owner sez he can get better groups.

 

[Northpoint]

23.5 grains of TAC under a Hornady 75 BTHP (2650 fps over a chrono) gives me groups like these:

8 shots at 100 metres
Pic

Typical 5 shot group at 200 metres
Pic


I don't expect as much from 55 grain plinking ammo, although it shoots it as well as many AR's. As well as a $3000 AR? Not likely, but that's because it's not a $3000 AR.

 

[M14.CA]

Guys - I can live with a 2 or 2.5 MOA gun. I cannot live with a 6 MOA gun that costs $2750.00. In your opinion is this gun capable of that?

If our Norinco T97NSR can do 3" at 100 yards with a 4x scope and a prototype flat top upper, the Tavor should do better. Quite surprised by this thread. Check out our Nanaimo range report in Post 196.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Any other recipes Northpoint?

I have stocks of BL C2 I am going to try under the Nosler 77 grain BTHP's. That shot very well in my AR so I am hoping it works well in the Tavor...I am sitting on 700 rounds of it! GAH!

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Guys - I can live with a 2 or 2.5 MOA gun. I cannot live with a 6 MOA gun that costs $2750.00. In your opinion is this gun capable of that?

If our Norinco T97NSR can do 3" at 100 yards with a 4x scope and a prototype flat top upper, the Tavor should do better. Quite surprised by this thread. Check out our Nanaimo range report in Post 196.

Thanks for that guys! I was beginning to fret there for a bit...

 

[Northpoint]

Any other recipes Northpoint?

To my surprise, 55 V-Max shot very well, and found good velocity with TAC powder again. I used the load data in the 9th ed. Hornady Manual for both loads.

I bet 77 Noslers or Sierras will shoot even better in a 7 twist than the Hornady 75 bthp, as they have a longer bearing surface than the 75 Hornady. I like the price of the Hornady 75 better.

 

[lawn gnome]

I find it funny that everyone starts with the firearm and the ammos' capability.
Why doesn't anyone start off with, "My abbility is a ### moa group"?

A good example is on the weekend I brought out a Type 97 for some dozen friends to try out.
Their abilities ranged from sub moa shooters to side of a barn type shooters.
Shooting the same rifle and same ammo, it just pointed out the obvious.
People have varying abilities. The great shooters had excellent groups, the poor shooters had less stellar groups, with a few odd surprises in between.


I suppose what I am asking is, are your shooting abilities within your hoped for moa before you expect as much out o the firearm and ammo combo?

No flaming going on here at all.
If you want to improve your shooting, go out and shoot more.
A rare firearm improves a persons skills,,, but practice and lots of ammo does wonders.

In the long run, did you have fun and did you bring others into our beloved past time?
I did last Sunday.

 

[supa]

Trying to decide what to satisfy my want of a new gun I came across this video. accuracy starts at the 36ish minute mark.

 

[Northpoint]

I find it funny that everyone starts with the firearm and the ammos' capability.
Why doesn't anyone start off with, "My abbility is a ### moa group"?

A good example is on the weekend I brought out a Type 97 for some dozen friends to try out.
Their abilities ranged from sub moa shooters to side of a barn type shooters.
Shooting the same rifle and same ammo, it just pointed out the obvious.
People have varying abilities. The great shooters had excellent groups, the poor shooters had less stellar groups, with a few odd surprises in between.


I suppose what I am asking is, are your shooting abilities within your hoped for moa before you expect as much out o the firearm and ammo combo?

No flaming going on here at all.
If you want to improve your shooting, go out and shoot more.
A rare firearm improves a persons skills,,, but practice and lots of ammo does wonders.

In the long run, did you have fun and did you bring others into our beloved past time?
I did last Sunday.

Well said.

I will summarize why I am so happy with my Tavor:
When I received my Tavor, i didn't immediately load 5 rounds of Norinco 55, and then get straight on here and complain about its lack of accuracy. In fact, the first thing I did is completely stripped the rifle down, to learn how it functions (very well engineered), and inspect for any issues. I did find one of the two rail clamps, which attaches the aluminum rail to the barrel, was loose right from the factory. I also removed the extra trigger return spring from the trigger pack.
I had the rifle for a month before I mounted an optic on it. During that time, I took it out 10 times, only using the backup sights, and really enjoyed myself. Once I chose an optic and mount, both turned up individually on the EE, and I purchased them. I chose a Vortex Viper PST 1-4, and a non-cantilevered ADM Recon mount. Well, was I stoked to have some magnification! Once magnified, I tried a few different types of ammo, and settled on American Eagle 55 grain black box as a good value to performance ratio. I was curious to know how it would shoot heavier bullets, so I loaded up some 75 bthp over TAC (again good value to performance in both components). With that load, I can hold around 2 moa, and I am more than satisfied with that, especially when we consider my amateur shooting skills. I am using a 4 power optic, so I'm fired up by the groups I shoot at 200 metres. I didn't expect the rifle to shoot tight groups just because of its high price tag, instead I worked on finding a good combination of ammo, and worked on my shooting position and skill.
I believe the Tavor is a $2000 gun (it sure is in the US), and a premium is added to it because we live in Canada, so everything costs more, and because it has non-restricted status. So when comparing it to a $2000 AR (and we had better be comparing it to a piston AR for accuracy), yes the AR may shoot tighter groups with proper load development, but to me it isn't as unique, short for barrel length, or balanced as the Tavor is. So I accept the trade-off, and that's why I can sleep at night not feeling ripped off, and the smile stays on my face long after I'm done shooting it.

My Tavor Setup

Scope Setup