Tavor: Time To **** Or Get Off The Pot!

Well here's what I'm going to do
Since i'm not a realoder I went on a shopping spree this morning and picked up all the possible combinations of .223 i could find in the Vancouver area
I have this:
AE black box 55 grain 3240fps
Winchester white box 55 grain 3240fps
Hornady VMAX 55 grain 3240fsp
Winchester PDX1 defender 60 grain 2750fps
Fusion 62 grain 3000fps
Winchester 64 grain powerpoint 3020fps
Hornady 75 grain bthp 2790fps
Fed sierra match king bthp 77 grain 2720 FPS

I'll post my results with 5 shot groups benchrest with improvised sandbags at 100yrds when I go on Friday.

IMG-20140104-00074_zpsdb09f46a.jpg
 
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Thanks Mike!

I'm totally looking forward to your review!

mikethebike said:
Well here's what I'm going to do
Since i'm not a realoder I went on a shopping spree this morning and picked up all the possible combinations of .223 i could find in the Vancouver area
I have this:
AE black box 55 grain 3240fps
Winchester white box 55 grain 3240fps
Hornady VMAX 55 grain 3240fsp
Winchester PDX1 defender 60 grain 2750fps
Fusion 62 grain 3000fps
Winchester 64 grain powerpoint 3020fps
Hornady 75 grain bthp 2790fps
Fed sierra match king bthp 77 grain 2720 FPS

I'll post my results with 5 shot groups benchrest with improvised sandbags at 100yrds when I go on Friday.

IMG-20140104-00074_zps16c96123.jpg
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cr5 said:
Sorry, The rule of thumb is that every barrel is different, what works in one may or may not work in another even if it is the rifle that followed the last one out of the factory.
Your theory of fast twists for heavy bullets is only true to a certain extent. A fast twist is needed to stabilize LONGER bullets which are typically heavier but you can not over stabilize a bullet. You can however spin a bullet faster than it was designed which can cause it to come apart when it leaves the muzzle which may limit you from using some light varmint bullets in a fast twist barrel.
Here are some examples taken from my experience.
My first SL8-4 (one of the first ones that came into Canada) loved 75gr Black Hills Match BTHP and would shoot 1moa all day as fast as I could squeeze off another round after getting back on target. My new SL8-4 shoots the same ammo into about 3moa.
My current SL8-4 (1:7 twist of course) will shoot Winchester 50gr Ballistic Silvertips into just a hair over 1moa which is about the same as it does with Hornady 55gr V-max. It will also shoot my 60gr Nosler handloads into sub moa.

So, while tight twists are needed for longer (heavier) bullets that doesn't mean they won't shoot shorter (lighter) bullets. Every person on here needs to experiment and find a round that THEIR barrel likes and do their own load development with their handloads. I will gladly share my handload recipes but I always warn that they may not work well in someone else's rifle.
Once someone finds the round their barrel likes they have to look at the cost of that ammo and decide if it is worth it. As has been said, some guys have found that the best ammo for their rifle costs $35/box and others have been lucky and found that their rifle likes Norinco garbage.
Those are the biggest reasons I handload. I get to pick my bullets and tailor them to work with my rifles. When I am finished I get premium ammo that costs about the same as the cheapest factory loads.
I also don't do any work on the chrony until I find my accuracy nodes then I check them for velocity to record the data for comparison. Velocity has very little to do with accuracy other than every barrel will have a certain velocity for a certain bullet weight where the bullet leaves the muzzle at the same point in the harmonic whip at the same point which will be the velocity where the point of impact is the most consistent.

And GT's right, if it had a quality barrel it shouldn't matter how fast you shoot. My SL8-4 doesn't get babied when I'm doing development, I shoot, get back on target, stabilize, and shoot again. This crap about letting the rifle cool is only finding a way around having a sh!t barrel. My AR's get shot the same way and the accuracy doesn't change as the barrel gets warm. I don't let my barrels get so hot that I can't put my hand on them but they sure don't get a 5 min break between shots.

The biggest factor with any rifle's accuracy is the shooter, if you aren't shooting from a solid stable rest you shouldn't be posting on here saying what the RIFLE can do, you should be posting saying what YOU can do. If you're going to shoot using your skeleton for support just have fun out there and don't worry about tight groups, there are very few people in the world capable of shooting consistently that way. A bi-pod is better but bags or a solid shooting rest are the best. You need to take your body out of the equation as much as possible for the ultimate test of what the rifle is capable of shooting.
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Hmmmmph. Well, if rapid fire and barrel heat improve your accuracy, smile and run with it! You ARE correct about the length of the bullet being crucial to the stabilization formulas, though, and they offer an excellent starting point for load development. (That's not my theory either - it comes right out of the ballistics labs by people who have access to pressure barrels, high speed cameras, and other diagnostic tools we don't have ourselves). I have other rules of thumb that annoy my intellectual and moral superiors...to wit: I always start with boat tail bullets, and I always use a chrony because my velocities never match the ones posted in the manuals. But that's just me - your mileage may vary!

Today I was out in -23C and the winds probably took that down south to around -30C. Strong gusts, blowing snow and frozen hands made any serious benchwork impossible...so I shot all offhand today. Everything in the black, even with the wind! Woohoo! I thought I would regret selling the AR...but this beast CAN shoot - wind and snow and mushy trigger be damned!

This, gentlemen, is the future of battlefield rifles.
 
One Lung Wonder said:
Hmmmmph. Well, if rapid fire and barrel heat improve your accuracy, smile and run with it! You ARE correct about the length of the bullet being crucial to the stabilization formulas, though, and they offer an excellent starting point for load development. (That's not my theory either - it comes right out of the ballistics labs by people who have access to pressure barrels, high speed cameras, and other diagnostic tools we don't have ourselves). I have other rules of thumb that annoy my intellectual and moral superiors...to wit: I always start with boat tail bullets, and I always use a chrony because my velocities never match the ones posted in the manuals. But that's just me - your mileage may vary!

Today I was out in -23C and the winds probably took that down south to around -30C. Strong gusts, blowing snow and frozen hands made any serious benchwork impossible...so I shot all offhand today. Everything in the black, even with the wind! Woohoo! I thought I would regret selling the AR...but this beast CAN shoot - wind and snow and mushy trigger be damned!

This, gentlemen, is the future of battlefield rifles.
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I don't think accuracy gets better with barrel heat, only that a quality barrel shouldn't be affected by heat much and I don't let mine cool between shots.
If it starts spraying as soon as it has a couple rounds down it I sell it. I buy semi autos to shoot semi auto not slower than my bolt action.
 
I don't have one to go rip apart and muck about with, but from what I remember of changing over the Tavor to left-hand drive, there is considerable restriction on the barrel by the stock and gas system (at least the early version I had).
Barrel heat can and does affect accuracy most definitely. Most civilian shooting (especially with our mag limits) shouldn't see much if any noticeable degradation, but it does happen even with the best barrels. (Cold bore shot anyone?)
Floated barrels like can be had on the SL-8 and AR platform are affected, but less so than ones with crap attached to them.
Others may be affected so much so that POI shift could be a likely result.
It is quite likely this is what is ailing the Tavor.
 
I agree BF. The Tavor has a light contour barrel and contrary to my intellectual and moral superiors in the shooting world - in my experience, getting sporter or standard weight barrelled guns - ones that are not bedded and free floated to boot - is very, very difficult.

As far as bullet selection goes - this is my method, your mileage may vary - is that I look at barrel twist rates and the bullets recommended for them. That is a good starting point. Then I look at what the cool kids are shooting: if you go to Camp Perry - most the cool kids that are winning those type of matches under formal shooting conditions with the 5.56/.223 are shooting 1:7 barrels with 77 grain bullets. None of them are shooting cheap surplus 55 grain ammo.

Mind you, none of them are shooting Tavors either...so what do I know?
 
I think all of the talk about bullet weight is pretty funny.
It's really apparent some people have no clue what they are talking about when they want to load up 77 SMKs for 100m shooting.
Unless you are shooting out to and beyond 500m, there is no real good reason to pick the 77gr. SMK or other OTM bullets in that weight class (exceptions to follow).
0-300m shooting has proven the 69gr. SMK (and similar) to be a much better suited round - it is more forgiving, and therefore provides better accuracy at closer ranges.
0-150m is better served still by a bullet like the 55-60 gr. Hornady A/Z/V Max type bullets, and often their flat based counter parts are shooting even better at the closer distances.

I think where this trend amongst the 'tactical crowd' to want to shoot OTMs in the heavier weight stems from is the fact Special forces have seen improved performance with this stuff over general issue ammo.
So there is the exception: unless you are face shooting bad guys or shooting long range (for a service rifle), there is no reason to shoot the heavier stuff.

It is without question the heavier bullets offer great accuracy (because they are manufactured with better consistency than regular FMJ), but so too can lighter 'match' quality bullets.
 
Goddammit.

BF can you recommend a good 55 grain bullet? I have no skin in this fight, if 55's will shoot as good or better and they are available in bulk I will use them. I think I have a pound of Benchmark around here that I can burn with them...

It's been my experience though that some guns simply have no preference for ammo at all. I have a CZ .22 like that - I have fired cheapy Winchester Wildcats in it, and Eley Tenex ($20.00/box) and the damn thing shoots EVERYTHING into groups around 1/2 ~ 3/4" at 50 yards. Points of impact change from brand to brand but group size remains pretty constant. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that will be the way of it here, given the way everyone is talking.
 
The 53 amax is a boat tail.
Good ballistics for that weight and the terminal performance that the amax is known for.
My favourite in the 223 55 grain weight range.

The tavor is somewhat ammo insensitive due to the "sight stabilizer" pressure point at the front of the handguard. Removing it and other barrel contact points makes some ammo shoot worse, and some shoot better. Which makes sense as the harmonics of the barrel are being let loose to do their thing.

One Lung Wonder said:
Goddammit.

BF can you recommend a good 55 grain bullet? I have no skin in this fight, if 55's will shoot as good or better and they are available in bulk I will use them. I think I have a pound of Benchmark around here that I can burn with them...

It's been my experience though that some guns simply have no preference for ammo at all. I have a CZ .22 like that - I have fired cheapy Winchester Wildcats in it, and Eley Tenex ($20.00/box) and the damn thing shoots EVERYTHING into groups around 1/2 ~ 3/4" at 50 yards. Points of impact change from brand to brand but group size remains pretty constant. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that will be the way of it here, given the way everyone is talking.
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I would generally stick to a varmint or match quality bullet - Hornady, Sierra, Nosler and Berger are all readily available.
For loading to mag length, stay away from the 'VLD' type bullets with a secant ogive, as they don't generally take the 'jump' to the rifling too well.
The 60gr. Hornady A (or is it V?) Max bullets can be had in a flat base - maybe start there and another BT bullet - the 69 gr. SMK are a very forgiving and accurate bullet. The 55 SMK and Hornady 55 AMax are also very good.
Really, you have about 2-3 Dozen bullets to choose from.
Good luck.
 
I just loaded up another 100 55gr noslers today with Varget and H335.
The v-max are also a good bullet in the 50-60gr range.

Most of what I've read says you don't need a boat tail till you are shooting to 300yds or more as the benefits of the better BC don't pay off till you start stretching it out a little.
I do however prefer to load boat tails as well since they don't catch on the case mouth when your seating. The Noslers today were flat base though and I had no problems with them.

I think I have around 400 rounds loaded now with various 5 round batches with different bullets and powders. I really need some time at the range ;)
 
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