Opinion's on reloading 9mm

Thanks for the comments.

Does reloading for pistol really make that much of a difference? For rifle no doubt, a guy needs to reload. Factory hunting ammo in an accurate rifle make the accurate rifle shoot like crap; reloads in an accurate rifle are much better. I just don't see the same benefit in pistol; when I am at the range I don't notice tighter groupings between batches of ammo.
 
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To be honest, I'll reload pistol for cost. Most of the ammo I buy is about $30 for 100 rounds. Just put an order in for a keg of titegroup and offset the cost of shipping with a bunch of other stuff. The math I worked out with cost of powder, bullets from Shooter Ready and pricing for 1000 CCI small pistol primers...

Casing: Free (all range pickup or reused factory casings)
Powder: $0.013 (4 grains Titegroup)
Primer: $0.04
Bullet: $0.08 (124 grain CamPro RN)
= $0.133 ($6.65 / 50)

Add a couple cents a round if you want to incorporate taxes and diluted shipping costs, etc... but in general, I'm quite happy with this kind of savings. Of course, the bigger the caliber, the bigger the savings. I've probably shot $1000 worth of ammo through my S&W 500, but my reload costs for home cast bullets is somewhere around the $0.20 to $0.30 mark, whereas factory ammo goes for $3 or more a pop.

From the rifle perspective, I still consider savings, but I also consider improved quality of ammo. For instance, I can buy pretty much entry level 308 Win Federal hunting bullets at Canadian Tire for about $1 per shot. That is about how much the Nosler Partition bullets cost at 180 grains. The difference is that the Nosler Partition is a much better hunting bullet. When I look at comparable factory loads, for instance, ones advertised as using Sierra bullets, they tend to run between $2 to $3 per round. My bullet is $1, my powder cost (Varget @ 42.5 grains) is $0.23 and primer about $0.08 (CCI BR2). So for $1.31, I'm getting a round equal to or better than a factory $3+ round, and tuned to my rifle.

I shouldn't say that we are really saving much. We reload so we shoot more... :)

I can't wait to get my 9mm powder and bullets. I have about 800 pieces of primed and prepped brass ready for powder and bullets. Need more brass and primers.
 
Thanks for the input. I was able to pick up some Cdn bdx and a turret press. Took my loads to the range and the reloaded ammo does shoot tighter than the factory federal ammo; though not by much. The cost was lower as well. Now I gotta shoot lots to make my money back...
 
reloading for 9mm, it costs me half.
reloading with cast bullets, it costs me like 5 cents a round... eh.

But note that reloading gear cost me WAY more than what I would have paid to buy factory ammo so far.
And it is not over yet... eh.

But reloading is a hobby, and hobbies usually cost money. I dont see it as a way to save money, because it would really not be worth my time. I like it as a hobby, and then, I mentally forget how much I have spent into the reloading tools, and then figure out how much I'm "saving" over factory ammo and I like that.

Dumb eh?
 
I've been reloading for 35 yrs. I don't consider it to be a hobby, I don't do it for fun. If someone would do my reloading for me I would even submit to watching a Honey Boo Boo marathon on tv (but rule number 1 is never shoot someone else's reloads). I shoot about 100rds each of 45 and 9mm weekly. Do the math for factory loads. I load to save money, but also for consistency. I also load because finding a consistent supply of the same factory ammo can sometimes be difficult (and I absolutely will not shoot that Norinco crap, (I have my flame suit on)). And yes I do find a different POI between brands even if the groups stay the same.
 
I can reload 9mm for 13 cents/rd. Canada Ammo's best deal on 9mm: 24 cents/rd.

Almost half price.
 
I can reload 9mm for 13 cents/rd. Canada Ammo's best deal on 9mm: 24 cents/rd.

Almost half price.

110$ saving per 1000 excluding brass.
lets say 1000 brass is 70$ shipped.
first 1000 you save 40$
then 110$ per 1000

depending on your progressive reloading setup (500-1500$, considering you are new at this and have nothing, you will need a tumbler, a press, dies, bla bla bla....)

For 9mm only, I guess it could be between 5-15K rounds before a new user starts to actually "save money"

so far I have reloaded maybe 1000 rounds of 9mm. Would still be far from getting my money back if it wasnt that I reload for other calibers inclusding rifle.
 
We ALL shoot our handguns at the range. I've yet to find a range that hosts action shooting games where I can't scrounge around and pick up 200 to 300 fairly freshly dropped 9mm casings with about 10 minutes worth of effort. In fact I make it a point to bring along an old nylon lunch bag and help "clean" the pistol bays at the end of the day. I can't fathom the idea of needing to buy 9mm brass or .40S&W brass.

Now I'm not some top tier shooter. Just a guy having some weekend fun. If I were to be competing in a National or World event where I had to travel and/or the opportunity is something that only comes up once in a blue moon then I'd probably invest in a case of fresh factory ammo. But for the rest of it pickup brass and reloads is just fine to me.

Horse96, I can see that you've got all your other questions answered but one. The hollow point bullets issue. And even then one or more posters addressed that by asking "why?". We simply don't need hollow point ammo. And ballistically/aerodynamically hollow point ammo has all the WRONG stuff going for it if accuracy and smooth feeding is the goal. It sounds like you've already seen that with your first reloads and the level of accuracy you got with basic shapes.

And yes, of all the ammo choices 9mm is the one you need to reload the most rounds before you see the payback benefits. But now that you're set up you can save more per round on the other calibers.
 
One gets a lot of satisfaction in casting and reloading. The time spent gathering lead and melting for ingots is less time getting into trouble at the bar or casino. Equipment costs amortized over many years amounts to less than a cup of coffee a day. For me, loading 9mm came after 44mag where the savings shows up a lot quicker.
 
I found this thread/article by Massad Ayoub on reloads.

This is a post from Mas Ayoob at THR
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Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)
 
Where are you getting your component bullets? Using bulk bullets, you should easily be able to load 9mm for much less than $320/1000

You can get CamPro bullets for Calgary pickup at very good prices:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/920811-CamPro-Bullets-Now-In-Stock-In-Calgary!

BDX bullets are also available from Calgary Shooting Centre.

I reload 9mm. I get my brass for free at the local range buy everything else in bulk and it costs me about 15-16c a round including wastage (about 1%). To set up a progressive press is somewhere in the $1200 range so you need to shoot a lot to make it worthwhile, about 12,000 rounds assuming you buy cartridges in bulk. If it wasn't for the other calibers that I reload I wouldn't bother with 9mm but for me it was $200 to set up for the 9mm so not a big deal. Bigger calibers such as 45ACP are much more worthwhile to reload. I primarily reload as I shoot cowboy action and you can't buy cartridges that are download the way we like and we go through a lot of bullets. In my case 800-1000 per month.
 
BIG Mistake reloading Defense Ammo. Buy Defense Ammo. Hundreds of Internet lawyers can't be wrong...:nest:
QUOTE]

ok so i know this was a while back on the thread but i had one question... if handloadling defensive ammo is a bad idea, why are hollow point projectiles even sold in Canada?( or anywhere for that matter). i mean, anyone who goes and picks up some hollow points is clearly getting ready to bust some skulls right? cause the only thing we can shoot here with a 9mm is paper or steel( unless your planning on taking out your JR carbine and shooting a deer with your .45 handloads). idk the whole firearms act is so flawed you really wonder why the politicians did some of the things they did.

ok rant over....back to the OPs topic
 
Thanks for the comments.

Does reloading for pistol really make that much of a difference? For rifle no doubt, a guy needs to reload. Factory hunting ammo in an accurate rifle make the accurate rifle shoot like crap; reloads in an accurate rifle are much better. I just don't see the same benefit in pistol; when I am at the range I don't notice tighter groupings between batches of ammo.

Typically you shoot a lot more handgun rounds so while you don't save as much per round as with rifle. Approx 12 cents for 9mm, 20 cents per for 38spl and 25 per 45ACP assuming you are buying your ammo by the case of 1000, more if you buy small lots. If you shoot as much as I do 800-1000 rounds per month. It mounts up pretty quick. My reloading budget is $200 per month that gets me over 1000 rounds of mixed types. You cannot buy anything except 22 for that. Cheapest bulk 9mm I can find these days is $300 per 1000 including tax. Plus I actually enjoy reloading and you can reload to suit the gun, style of shooting etc. To me its a win win win.
 
Another way to improve savings is to get together with several of your good friends that also reload and buy larger quantities from local sources to eliminate shipping costs. We found there are number of IPSC local vendors in GTA that will also deliver when the quantity is large enough, in other words order minimum 1 year supply per person and the savings are sweet. One other thing, jump on special promotions like CanadaAmmo Dominion primers, that kind of price can not be beat 3c per primer, taxes in and delivered when you buy $200 worth.
 
How long does it take to "knock off" a 1000 rounds on a reloader?

With a Dillon 550 loading pistol cartidges, it is doable in a couple hours of actual loading, plus maybe a half hour of setup, filling primer tubes, etc. A press with a case feeder like a 650 or a Hornady Lock-N-Load can probably double that production rate. A turret or single stage press will be much slower.
 
I just started reloading 9mm about a month ago on my single stage Co-ax press.
I have been reloading .308win and 300wsm for the past 2 years.

Here's my cost breakdown
Powder: $0.02 (5gr of IMR4765. It was the only powder I could find locally)
Primer: $0.034 (CCI500 small pistol primer)
Bullet: $0.09 (Campro 124gr 9mm RN)
Cases: Free (mostly range pickup)
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Total: $ $0.14/round or $7.20/50. The cost includes taxes (GST+PST)

The cheapest I could find locally was $13.99+tax/50, so for me it's definitely worth it.
I also shoot about 800-1000 rounds/month.

With the brass already sized and deprimed, I can do about 100 in an hour.
 
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