The last Japanese warrior...
- Thread starter FishDoc
- Start date
This guy's joking right!?
IBTL...congratulations! I'm not entirely sure if it is whiskey talking it's way through this thread, or the collective IQ plummeted due to some strange anomaly in the water or what is the cause, but this thread is the worst I've read in quite some time.
One d1ckhead writing history interjected with his own thoughts on the subject {like he was there!?} cry for Dresden all you want, did you happen to know about German airships (Zeppelins) firebombing England in 1915? We've been fighting since the dawn of man, get over yourself!
As it has been said... Woe to the vanquished.
One d1ckhead writing history interjected with his own thoughts on the subject {like he was there!?} cry for Dresden all you want, did you happen to know about German airships (Zeppelins) firebombing England in 1915? We've been fighting since the dawn of man, get over yourself!
As it has been said... Woe to the vanquished.
{edit} So pissed, I double tapped.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Vancouver, BC
This was all done AFTER the Germans bomb the #### out of London.
The fact is that the Japanese army did some very screwed up things in World War II.
The Japanese were so ashamed of what they did in WWII and they kept on denying and taking responbility of what they did to the civilians and POW.
Excellent, another 'atrocity' for you to think about...
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Nanaimo, B.C.
No need to get pissed off...
The Allies resorted to some extreme measures to assure victory. That is the point I am trying to make. Who started it, or who caused the most deaths is irrelevant. The fact remains. Both sides did some awful sh!t.
Sorry to break your romanticized vision of a "good ol' boy" victory.
The Allies resorted to some extreme measures to assure victory. That is the point I am trying to make. Who started it, or who caused the most deaths is irrelevant. The fact remains. Both sides did some awful sh!t.
Sorry to break your romanticized vision of a "good ol' boy" victory.
I hate arguing WWII history with the cheerleaders on this site, but four things immediately come to mind here:
I personally know a Canadian veteran who was ordered to shoot surrendering Germans. The major told them he would personally shoot anyone bringing him a prisoner.
The Americans starved at least 1 million German POWs to death.
The allies bombed civilians in Essen and elsewhere but left the factories intact for the French to dismantle and take home after the war. How else did the German war effort continue despite the heavy bombing?
Japan was effectively already defeated in 1945 and the atom bombs were used to test them, and to demonstrate to the USSR who was going to be boss for the rest of the 20th century.
The Nazis and Japanese weren't the only bad guys at times.
I personally know a Canadian veteran who was ordered to shoot surrendering Germans. The major told them he would personally shoot anyone bringing him a prisoner.
The Americans starved at least 1 million German POWs to death.
The allies bombed civilians in Essen and elsewhere but left the factories intact for the French to dismantle and take home after the war. How else did the German war effort continue despite the heavy bombing?
Japan was effectively already defeated in 1945 and the atom bombs were used to test them, and to demonstrate to the USSR who was going to be boss for the rest of the 20th century.
The Nazis and Japanese weren't the only bad guys at times.
Honestly, nobody is interested in the 'They were bad, but we were bad too' argument...Your wasting your time and ours. Save it for those who give a s..t and thank your lucky stars things worked out the way they did.!!
Japan was effectively defeated in '43, but didn't know when to quit. They were still fighting in April '45 when the Americans invaded Okinawa and suffered some 80,000 casualties doing so. There was no reason to believe they wouldn't face similar resistance invading the Japanese home islands. There is well documented evidence that the Japanese had planned to execute all p.o.w.'s as the situation deteriorated.
So tell me how the Truman could have gone to the American public and explained how 100,000+ of your sons, husbands, brothers, are not coming home because we wanted to spare Japanese civilians. If it saved the life of one allied p.o.w., then dropping the bombs was worth it.
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nanaimo, B.C.
I don't think you realize what you just said.
Do you agree with the use of terror against an enemy's civilian population?
Do you agree with the use of terror against an enemy's civilian population?
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I read about this guy many years ago. I do not think he was "all there" mentally. He listened to the 1960 Tokyo Olympics on a radio and wondered about the "enemy" nations competing. The Japanese sent military officers and broadcast on loudspeakers for him to give up, but he thought it "was a trick". He would also come across newspapers as he was stealing stuff from villagers to stay alive at times. I also lived in Japan for two years and when I asked a few older gentlemen about him they seemed embarrassed.
Re: All this banter about the ethics of the A bomb. I think these are coming from younger people who are being asked to question things in their history classes. Which is fine, however to understand history you have to put it in the context of the time. And I think these revisionist's are using the power of 20/20 hindsight instead. Consider the last Canadian to die in WW2 basically flew his aircraft into a Japanese ship 3 days after Hiroshima - I think its laughable to think everyone thought it was "over".
Re: All this banter about the ethics of the A bomb. I think these are coming from younger people who are being asked to question things in their history classes. Which is fine, however to understand history you have to put it in the context of the time. And I think these revisionist's are using the power of 20/20 hindsight instead. Consider the last Canadian to die in WW2 basically flew his aircraft into a Japanese ship 3 days after Hiroshima - I think its laughable to think everyone thought it was "over".
Being an historian and having the chance to teach history for a living is a blessing, beleive me. I like the many discussions about historical topics in this forum because they show so many differents points of vue and perspectives. But honestly, I must state that because one have read a few books and have a opinion, that still doesnt make him an historian. The historical porcess by itself is a long one and it demands a solid formation. That being said, everyone is intitled to his own point of vue, that still doesnt means its the truth. As many knows, in history only the facts are certain, the rest, mostly interpretations, are a construction made by historians by reaching some concensus in the scientific community. Many would be surprised how difficult it is to reach a concensus within this historians community nowadays. The Interpretation of historical facts must be made after considering the facts themself, selecting the sources, taking in account the past historiography and so on and so on... Its called the historical method and its teached at the university. Its teached during the first year of most history programs so the futurs historians wont be tempted to give quick, emotional or easy interpretations to historical facts after reading a few books on the subject. The same goes for the books themselves. Not all of the monographies (about ww2 for exemple) have been written by qualified historians. Some history books are political statement, other are only giving the point of vue of the author etc etc. So all of this to say the one must be very very carefull when attempting to give a judgment about historical event as we know them. Of course history is written by those who won, but that doesnt mean its all lies and propaganda... Honestlly, you'd be surprised by the way most historians today consider that period. We shoulld have some modesty when its time to make sens of historical events, its not as simple as many seems to think. But about the present subject, I can say that its broadly admitted that the Japan and Germany went way deeper in the organized horror then the western allies all combined (I,m not talking about the soviets here because they werent in the initial discussion). I'm not saying that the allies had their hands clean all along, but to put them on the same level as germany and Japan is an insult to the victims and an shortcut in historical reasoning.
Ah, let me clarify then...
We ( Canada, Britain, USA, USSR ) did not start the war. The dropping of the two atomic bombs brought it to a decisive end, full stop. The veterans of Okinawa were not shedding tears at the news of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were questioning why they had to endure Okinawa, when a war winning weapon was so close at hand. And again, there was no way to justify sacrificing allied casualties to spare the enemy. None of the revisionist history fantasies are going to change the fact that the war had to be won, and as quickly as possible and by whatever means, to save the lives of our soldiers, sailors, and civilians.
And if I haven't made my point clear enough, I would not trade the lives of one of those poor bastards at Hong Kong, Singapore, or the Philipines for the entire nation of Japan, who were our enemies at the time.
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nanaimo, B.C.
My argument was not to put the Axis and Allies to the same level of brutality. Perhaps some took it that way, but it was not my intent.
I am trying to break through the hypocrisy and discrimination. People love to point out how the Japanese Imperial Army terrorized the Pacific and that we should hate "The Japanese" for that. Since when does the acts of an Emperor and his military constitute hatred toward the civilian population? Same goes with Germans.
I could go further into terrorism as a tactic in modern warfare... etc. But I grow weary of play devils advocate.
On a side note. You still see many Neo Nazis around these days. Why is there no Neo-Shōwas?
I am trying to break through the hypocrisy and discrimination. People love to point out how the Japanese Imperial Army terrorized the Pacific and that we should hate "The Japanese" for that. Since when does the acts of an Emperor and his military constitute hatred toward the civilian population? Same goes with Germans.
I could go further into terrorism as a tactic in modern warfare... etc. But I grow weary of play devils advocate.
On a side note. You still see many Neo Nazis around these days. Why is there no Neo-Shōwas?
Oliver Stone's the untold history of the united states provides some little known information about the US involvement in the world wars. Apparently Stone obtained documents when researching his war movies. In the 10 part documentary, he covered the financing of German war machine and to what really led to the Japanese surrender based on the documents he obtained. What was surprising was that it was the Russians the Japanse feared the most and led to their surrender. Maybe Stone was drinking too much kool aid but see it and decide for yourself.
You asked me:
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki immediately extinguished the Japanese will to fight = Out Go the Lights.
