Mosin Nagant 91/30 Sniper Help Please.

ajagcapt

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I would like to make a MN 91/30 sniper rifle my next purchase (I just got an M1 carbine and Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* as my first two!), but the info out there is confusing to say the best and the dealer websites I have visited don't provide a lot of details on what they are selling.

My big concern is counterfeiting, repro's etc. being pawned off as real. I got Lapin's book to help me, but am very concerned by this passage:

"At this writing, parts or even fully assembled “sniper” rifles can be purchased for comparatively reasonable prices. I mention this in order to warn the prospective snayperskaya buyer that his purchase will almost certainly be a postwar reproduction assembled in the United States by the importer or dealer, even if all parts are from the same arsenal and in the same condition of wear."

My question is: does anyone know of a dealer who has "real" sniper rifles in stock right now? - what guys may have had before or in the old days doesn't help me :)

I'm trying my best for this not to be a purchase gone bad, and would appreciate any help.
 
I would like to make a MN 91/30 sniper rifle my next purchase (I just got an M1 carbine and Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk 1* as my first two!), but the info out there is confusing to say the best and the dealer websites I have visited don't provide a lot of details on what they are selling.

My big concern is counterfeiting, repro's etc. being pawned off as real. I got Lapin's book to help me, but am very concerned by this passage:

"At this writing, parts or even fully assembled “sniper” rifles can be purchased for comparatively reasonable prices. I mention this in order to warn the prospective snayperskaya buyer that his purchase will almost certainly be a postwar reproduction assembled in the United States by the importer or dealer, even if all parts are from the same arsenal and in the same condition of wear."

My question is: does anyone know of a dealer who has "real" sniper rifles in stock right now? - what guys may have had before or in the old days doesn't help me :)

I'm trying my best for this not to be a purchase gone bad, and would appreciate any help.
The recent batch of Mosin sniper that have been imported are real ones. They have been refurb in russia and exported by a company called Molot. Thoses were originally born as sniper rifle so they are authentic, refurb but still the real deal. Weimajack have somes in stock i think,look in EE for ads or send him pm, also P.S militaria have them in stock. Weimajack and P.S are top notch sellers, you can buy in confidence. I bought one from Weimajack last year, didnt have time to try it yet but the condition is awesome!

Joce
 
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Well I am by no means an expert on the subject but maybe I can help you a bit. I have both a repro sniper from westrifle and a "original" that I purchased from P&S. I did a ton of scouring the web before buying and I feel the best answer to your question is this: an original ww2 sniper assembled in a Russian arsenal during the war would be next to impossible to find. The repros are of varying quality and the main issue I've seen with them is there is no guarantee that whoever installed the scope lined it up properly centered with the bore making accuracy a real challenge!

From what I can tell most of the "original" snipers that dealers currently carry have been brought in by Molot of Russia through the USA. Mine has their laser etched markings under the barrel and on underside of the bolt handle. The authenticity of these rifles is hotly debated on the Internet. The scopes appear to have been set up by a knowledgable armorer as they are in perfect line with the bore. These molot rifles look aged and authentic but the couple I have inspected have clearly been re barreled as the bores are shiny and new and the bluing on the receiver does not match the barrel. Best case scenario these gun were refurbished in the 1960's or 70's, worst case it was done by molot before importing them in the 2000's.

In conclusion i'd say the current Molot snipers are probably the closet you can get to an original Mosin sniper. More importantly they seem to be setup properly to insure you have a pretty accurate shooter. I'm not sure if I really clarified anything for you but I hope this helps.
 
Snipers were gone by the time of Vietnam war. That is why North Vietnam started to get new Hungarian made Mosin snipers. Molot is like mitchell mauser nice copies. Molot makes good products but it is made now not WW2 vintage. Moscow police snipers give me a brake they switch to svd in mid 60s last sniper out of their inventory was send to Vietnam in 1971
 
Snipers were gone by the time of Vietnam war. That is why North Vietnam started to get new Hungarian made Mosin snipers. Molot is like mitchell mauser nice copies. Molot makes good products but it is made now not WW2 vintage. Moscow police snipers give me a brake they switch to svd in mid 60s last sniper out of their inventory was send to Vietnam in 1971

Do you have any proof of this. And they made over 300 000 PU snipers there no way they gave them all away.
 
Do you have any proof of this. And they made over 300 000 PU snipers there no way they gave them all away.

Neither he nor anybody else has proof of anything. Molot must be one of the most thorough fakers ever know to man to pull of what they are alleged to have done with this batch of snipers. They sourced a whole bunch of ww2 sniper stocks (arsenal markings & tula dated with even oxidization in the scope cut out), a bunch of ex-snipers(only way to get in the same serial range as rifles of know origin with cn stamps on tulas & old ground away scope serials on the izhevsks) & by magic dug up a lot of pu scopes from various makers and dates, mixed them in blender & sold them to stupid americans. Most of the people who claim these are fake have never held one or any other 91/30 sniper.
 
i agree they are the real thing though they were referbed at some point i think they are real pu91/30 sniper rifles not reacently put together rifles.Jean at P&S may be your best bet give him a call and ask a few questions
 
Russian made 91/30 snipers were used in Vietnam, I have seen several vet bringbacks at the big US Gunshows. Molots are not repros they have been confirmed as originals by several Advanced US collectors with years of experiences in collecting Soviet weapons.
 
I honestly believe in authenticity of thoses snipers M91/30. I got one, a Izhevsk 1944 with a svt scope 1942. On mine, i can clearly see where the old scope number was ground of on the barrel shank then being restamped with the scope used for refurb. Russia built a monster load of mosin sniper, not unusual to find somes that have seen only little use. So unless someone come with facts that can be verify that thoses snipers are fake, they are in my opinion original sniper rifle that have been refurb.
Joce
 
If you go for the PU scope bear in mind that the focus is fixed so if your eyes are less than optimal, or ageing, you may see a blurred reticle.
 
Here's my two bits: years ago (25 or so) Century was selling Hungarian Mosin Snipers with ruined bores and no scope for $75. These were well used but not abused, ORIGINAL Mosin snipers. I bought one and used it. The bolt handle is longer then a normal infantry rifle, not just a bent over stock handle. There is NO evidence that the handle was welded on. Many fakes have a weld or fresh machining on the bolt where the weld was machined. Looking closely there was NO evidence of ANY weld. The barrel was also heavier profile then a normal infantry rifle. Not much, but some. Not sure if Ruskie Mosins were so but my Hungarian Factory 02 rifle had a slightly heavier barrel.
Ultimately I used the $75 rifle for a plinker, then sold the original Sniper bolt and scope mount on eBay to a happy American for $375 after frenzied bidding.
 
Reference site: http://7.62x54r.net/ is excellent. There is also an excellent web page on the PU scopes with FAR more info than Lapin who claims there was only one manufacturer of the scopes. Evidence clearly shows many more makers.

Note that there are mistakes wherever you look. For example, the Soviets never called these rifles a Mosin-Nagant. Lapin's book and the 7.62x54r.net website perpetuate that myth instead of trying to correct it. It is more accurate to say Mosin (pronounced moe-zeen) 91/30 but even that is not their official terminology.

Lapin's book "The Mosin-Nagant Rifle" is very skimpy on the sniper rifles but is excellent otherwise. Mine is the 6th Edition. These sell for about $23-25. http://northcapepubs.com ncape@ix.netcom,com in Tustin, Calif., USA. Sometimes for sale at bigger gun shows.

WWII Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifles. I bought my first one for $75 from Lever Arms about 1970 NOS in the chest (sadly let that one go later). About 26,000 were made during and just after WWII. Many were sold off surplus for low prices in the 1960s and early 1970s. The British and Canadians tend to sell off obsolete rifles quickly (they hate paying for storage!) and do not stockpile captured weapons (other than a few for training aids and museums). In contrast the Soviets were pack-rats. They cleaned, overhauled and STORED FOR about 65 years (!!!!) captured P-38s, Mauser Kar98ks etc. by the thousands and these are now on the market. Look also at the arsenal reconditioned (out of war reserves) Mosin 91/30, SKS and SVT-40 rifles. THOUSANDS of their warehoused guns are on the market now. In contrast to the c.26,000 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) snipers built, over 185,000 Mosin 901/30 sniper rifles were made between 1932-1947 (Lapin 6th Edition p211) and even he does not know for sure and had no figures for 1943-1947! This is SEVEN TIMES as many Mosin sniper rifles compared with Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T).

I have carefully examined about 10 of the Mosin 91/30 snipers sold to Canadian dealers by Molot as "sporting rifles" (rough translation). These came direct to Canada from Russia I believe, and I have no doubt that they are originals. The Americans are desperate for original snipers and are often rescoping de-snipered rifles (scope and mount removed, mounting holes plugged and rifles reissued as regular rifles by Soviets). They are now jealous of Canadians (!!!!!) as we can import SVT-40 etc. that they cannot. I doubt that the Molot rifles came through the USA as they would have gobbled them up. I do admit that I have not dismantled any to see if there are hidden USA required import markings, but I can say that no such markings are visible on the outside. Some of the Mosin 91/30 rifles imported into the USA have made their way to Canada and I saw one with a replica scope set-up in a store a few months ago.

Buyer beware, try to examine it. Know what markings to look for.

I have also seen other Mosin 91/30 faked snipers. New replica PU scopes are lighter, have a blue tint and often say MADE IN RUSSIA. Original PU scopes ARE available of eBay contrary to what some dealers say. Buyer beware of course. Originals MAY have a year or may not. A 1943 rifle would notmally have a 1943 PU scope BUT may also have an earlier PU scope made for the SVT-40 and moved to a Mosin when the SVT-40 was phased out more or less as a sniper after 1942.
When a rifle is converted recently, the bolt handle is either altered or replaced. The stock has a notch cut in the left side to clear the scope mount. (Look for quality of work and especially for ageing, or lack therof, on the cut surfaces).

Interestingly some of the strongest opinions are held by those who have not done their research. I had one collector on CGN tell me that of the two letter prefix in the serial number that "C" as a first letter was a sniper and the second letter was the year. This was info from a US web site, complete with an annotated photo, but it was completely wrong. I have seen enough dated rifles for example to blow the theory out of the water. I suspect that the American who had posted the information originally based his theory on one rifle. The two letter prefix - these pairs of letters appear to have been used in RANDOM order so if one has a 1944 rifles one cannot assume that the one with "lower" alphabetical letter was made before the one with "higher" alphabetical numbers. No one yet knows why nor does anyone have a master list.

Recommendation: Look for a Molot Mosin 91/30 in the white cardboard box (Russian end-label) and including matching mount, scope, tools, oil bottle and mini-sniper manual in Russian with certificate in last few pages listing the rifle and scope SN as it left Russia c.2012. Ideally find one without the electro-pencilled rifle SN on the scope mount (most have it). These are still good but no electro-pencilling is better. If you have a choice, the Tula made are more scarce and more desirable desirable than the Izhevsk made examples. The Tula sniper rifles have the "CH" for sniper stamping (not mentioned by Lapin but clearly indicated in well researched web sites, sites often maintained by people who live in the former Eastern Block countries who speak the language, have access to military surplus and archives etc.) whereas the Izhevsk rifles do not. Expect to pay $650 (if you are really lucky) Canadian and up for a Molot arseanl reconditioned Mosin 91/30 sniper , plus taxes and possibly shipping. Slings are not included. By the way, that is as good as it is going to get because non-reconditioned "factory original" Mosin 91/30 snipers are extremely rare (e.g. Vietnam War captures).

Unconfirmed, but I hear from dealers that the Mosin supply in Europe is drying up. Having seen this happen with other rifles (e.g. Lee-Enfields) in the 1970s etc. I predict that good originals, especially original sniper rifles, will go up in price as the supply dries up. It would not hurt to put away some SKS, SVT-40, Mosin 91/30 and Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles still in the grease in heated storage for a decade or two. If friends are throwing away or selling off dirt cheap original parts from SKS for example that they have sporteized, grab them and put them in long term storage too. Think of the sporterized Lee-Enfields that many owners are working to restore back to military specs now. By the way, all that cheap ammo now for the Mosin/SVT-40 and SKS (two calibres I know) will dry up just as the surplus .303" and 7.92mm and .30/06 has dried up. So put away some crates of sealed ammo to for the long-term. No I am not being a US "survivalist" here, I just feel this is a long term investment opportunity ... assuming of course that the Liberals don't get back in and ban everything.
 
Seaforth, thanks for your tips. I've been a bit like a deer in the headlights.

It looks like P&S Militaria is the consensus place to get one, but I thought it might be a devil's bargain.

All the ones advertised on their website are either in post war stocks or have SVT scopes. Until your post I did not know that the MN was issued with SVT scopes. So that is period correct. I thought I was just faced with the mismatched leftover firearms they had in stock.

I do have one further question. As I intend to shoot this rifle, was it necessary that the SVT scope be adjusted for the MN rifle or did they work equally well out of the box?
 
As I intend to shoot this rifle, was it necessary that the SVT scope be adjusted for the MN rifle or did they work equally well out of the box?
Usually,SVT scope used on mosin are CB marked on the elevation turret. That mean the turret were recalibrated for the longer barrel of the mosin but some SVT scope are not recalibrated even if they were put on a mosin. I have a molot sniper with an SVT scope and the scope is not CB marked. I didn't have the occasion to shoot my sniper yet but i believe that the difference between a recalibrated SVT scope and a non recalibrated one will not matter much. Just zero your rifle and after some shooting, you will know how to compensate.

Joce
 
Happily the Soviets did not recalibrate all of their SVT scopes. I was able to find a lovely original 1942 one to go on my original 1942 SVT-40 sniper (replica mount in that case as original mounts for the SVT are very rare.) One of my Mosin 91/30 snipers has a recalibrated SVT scope - as it was in service.

Colin

Usually,SVT scope used on mosin are CB marked on the elevation turret. That mean the turret were recalibrated for the longer barrel of the mosin but some SVT scope are not recalibrated even if they were put on a mosin. I have a molot sniper with an SVT scope and the scope is not CB marked. I didn't have the occasion to shoot my sniper yet but i believe that the difference between a recalibrated SVT scope and a non recalibrated one will not matter much. Just zero your rifle and after some shooting, you will know how to compensate.

Joce
 
I'm sticking with the simple theory that you will know it is a real sniper when it shoots like a real sniper i.e. demonstrably more accurate than other rifles.
There is so little original source information available, and so many guesses, wishes, untruths, and speculation passed off as fact, that it is nearly impossible to say where the truth lies.
Guns are not works of fine art, they are tools. How well they achieve the requirement is the ultimate test of their authenticity.
I will buy a sniper version using all the information that is available to try to get a "real" one. I will know if it is "real" when I take it to the range.

P.S. Lapin is certainly an expert on Finnish rifles and bayonet variations but not on Mosin Nagants in general. Most of his book could have been written with greater authority by some of the collectors/enthusiasts on this, and other sites. Lapin belittles these rifles "suitable for uneducated peasants". Clearly he knows nothing about the importance robust design, ease of manufacture, simplicity of maintenance.
 
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