Ok, I'll play
50-100-450. Wouldn't want to be standing in front of one of those!
Matt
And you call yourself a 94 man
Winchester Model 1886..........?
- Thread starter kamlooky
- Start date
And you call yourself a 94 man
Ok, I'll play
50-100-450. Wouldn't want to be standing in front of one of those!
Matt
Wouldn't really want to stand behind one either, Matt.
Ah, them old girls are actually pussycats as long as you shoulder them correctly, now the 95 in 405 WCF is a whole 'nother ball game, 50 rounds in an afternoon is rather unpleasant.
Bill Ruger considered the Winchester 1886 one of the most handsome rifles ever made. . It is quite a remarkable rifle that was designed for black powder but was later upgraded for smokeless powder. .
Winchester's 1876 toggle action rifle was not strong enough nor the action long enough to handle the larger black powder loads. . Winchester asked John Moses Browning to design a lever action rifle that would handle the large black powder cases. . Browning's design was remarkable. So rermarkable he used the same basic design for the 1892 rifle that utilized handgun cartridges, surpassing the 1873.
The 45-90, black powder loading, was an express cartridge. . 300 gr. bullet pushed with 90 gr. black powder using a lengthened 45-70 case. . In the day this was big medicine for large bears and moose.
Here's my Great Granddad's 1886, made in early 1889. . Notice the size of the 45-90 cartridge. .
Winchester's 1876 toggle action rifle was not strong enough nor the action long enough to handle the larger black powder loads. . Winchester asked John Moses Browning to design a lever action rifle that would handle the large black powder cases. . Browning's design was remarkable. So rermarkable he used the same basic design for the 1892 rifle that utilized handgun cartridges, surpassing the 1873.
The 45-90, black powder loading, was an express cartridge. . 300 gr. bullet pushed with 90 gr. black powder using a lengthened 45-70 case. . In the day this was big medicine for large bears and moose.
Here's my Great Granddad's 1886, made in early 1889. . Notice the size of the 45-90 cartridge. .
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A friend of mine has an 86 in .45/90 and he fires 300 grain ammunition that is loaded now and available in the U.S.. He recently tried some 500 grain vintage smokeless loads that came with the rifle. Pretty unpleasant off a bench, he said he only tried three rounds and that was sufficient.
Most people mistake the 45-90 as a more powerful cartridge than the 45-70 when in fact it really isn't. It is longer, but was made that way to accept 90 grns of 2F powder (I think, maybe 3F) behind a 300 gn bullet. The standard load for the 45-70 was a 405 gn bullet, but when Win wanted to speed it up with the 300 gn bullet the case wasn't long enough to hold 90 grns of powder so they lengthened it to hold more powder but only to equal the 45-70 405 gn load energy wise. It is really nothing more than a 45-70 Imp so to speak. The COAL is the same as the 45-70 and the 45-90 bullets have to be seated so deep as to be of no greater capacity with the 405 gn bullet than the 45-70.
Matt . . No, the box in the picture is one I picked up a few years back. . I have a box and a half of old original black powder Winchester cartridges. . Some of these were handed down. . What I do have is 100 brand new brass cases and a set of RCBS loading dies 45-90. . A friend, here on CGN, casted me up some 300 gr. bullets, so I'm good to go with the new cases. . Also have an old Lyman reloading manual that has all the data, black powder and smokeless, for these old time cartridges with both cast and jacketed bullets. . I also load for 33 WCF, using this manual. . 338 WM 200 gr. bullets work. . I use the round nose bullets and make the tops flat.
As far as seating depth, I believe, the 45-70, 405 gr bullet is 7/32" deeper than the 45-90, 300 gr bullet. . Both 45-70 and 45-90 are suggested to be slightly compressed loads when using FFg black powder (70 gr and 90 gr). . They claimed it burns cleaner.
Here's an example of maximum loadings for both 45-70 and 45-90. . This is way more than I'd ever load for my old time rifles, but just to show what these old girls were capable of in their day.
45-70 . . 300 gr. max. for jacketed bullet 30.6 gr 2400 @1905 fps.
45-90 . . 300 gr. max for jacketed bullet 57.0 gr 4198 @ 2215 fps.
45-70 . . 405 gr. max for jacketed bullet 36.0 gr 4198 @ 1417 fps.
45-90 . . 405 gr. max for jacketed bullet 60.0 gr 3031 @ 1950 fps.
The 45-70 handles the 405 gr. bullet better as the 45-90 has a slower rifling twist to help prevent excessive leading and barrel fouling with the higher speed express loadings of the 300 gr bullet. .
As far as seating depth, I believe, the 45-70, 405 gr bullet is 7/32" deeper than the 45-90, 300 gr bullet. . Both 45-70 and 45-90 are suggested to be slightly compressed loads when using FFg black powder (70 gr and 90 gr). . They claimed it burns cleaner.
Here's an example of maximum loadings for both 45-70 and 45-90. . This is way more than I'd ever load for my old time rifles, but just to show what these old girls were capable of in their day.
45-70 . . 300 gr. max. for jacketed bullet 30.6 gr 2400 @1905 fps.
45-90 . . 300 gr. max for jacketed bullet 57.0 gr 4198 @ 2215 fps.
45-70 . . 405 gr. max for jacketed bullet 36.0 gr 4198 @ 1417 fps.
45-90 . . 405 gr. max for jacketed bullet 60.0 gr 3031 @ 1950 fps.
The 45-70 handles the 405 gr. bullet better as the 45-90 has a slower rifling twist to help prevent excessive leading and barrel fouling with the higher speed express loadings of the 300 gr bullet. .
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