Steel actually stronger then polymer?

Two guns made to the exact dimensions but one is made of steel and one made of polymer, the steel one would be more durable. Things like the polymer barrel and chamber would blow up first. You wouldn't have to go into double charges to find that out.

Or were you prefering to test a steel gun to a polymer gun with many steel components?

How many steel components can a polymer gun have and still be considered polymer in your test?

Could I put polymer grips on a 1911 and test it against a 1911 with metal grips?
 
mini15 said:
That's the thing though. Polymer still takes up the same amount of space as steel plus or minus a bit. So a 40oz polymer copy of a 40oz steel gun could be north of 60% larger in overall volume.

In that situation the weight would be the same, the strength would be higher but the gun would be ridiculously larger and couldn't be used conventionally. Especially talking handguns.


So it would seem that there is a strength advantage (with a weight downside) to using all metal construction in handguns.
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Yes and polymer has shown to provide a weight savings while maintaining a suitable strength in comparison. So what exactly is your point here?
 
Mini 14 ...... you know the answer ...... Its a simple Question, and a simple answer .....steel frames are stronger.... (not nessasarily better...)
I Love my Polimer pistols, just as much as my steel guns, But the question begs for a argument simply by the way its worded, from people that miss interpret what you are saying ....
also have to define (stronger) do you mean harder,////// or less prone to Breaking via piercing, crushing, cracking or shattering .
A FMJ round from a powerfull rifle might blow a hole clean through a 1/4 inch plate steel and yet be stopped by a ceramic strike plate .. for example .
I can say this.
Its my personal opinion, that I feel more confident in the strength of my steel frame pistols ...But at the same time don't feel at risk of injury with the polimers either....
I am also Very confident, that I could Tear any Polimer frame, in to a bunch if little bitty pieces,of at least mangle the livein crap out of it, with nothing more than a Cheap pair of plyers and a bad hair day. and I think I would be a bit more go of it with any steel frame.... or would at least take a bit longer .
 
black sunshine said:
Mini 14 ...... you know the answer ...... Its a simple Question, and a simple answer .....steel frames are stronger.... (not nessasarily better...)
I Love my Polimer pistols, just as much as my steel guns, But the question begs for a argument simply by the way its worded, from people that miss interpret what you are saying ....
also have to define (stronger) do you mean harder,////// or less prone to Breaking via piercing, crushing, cracking or shattering .
A FMJ round from a powerfull rifle might blow a hole clean through a 1/4 inch plate steel and yet be stopped by a ceramic strike plate .. for example .
I can say this.
Its my personal opinion, that I feel more confident in the strength of my steel frame pistols ...But at the same time don't feel at risk of injury with the polimers either....
I am also Very confident, that I could Tear any Polimer frame, in to a bunch if little bitty pieces,of at least mangle the livein crap out of it, with nothing more than a Cheap pair of plyers and a bad hair day. and I think I would be a bit more go of it with any steel frame.... or would at least take a bit longer .
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I am shaking my head and wondering why I even responded to a thread posted by the OP, he has a history of starting moronic threads that troll. One day the mods will tire of him spamming the forum with idiotic posts.
 
redddogg69 said:
Not exactly true. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2307&page=109
Two objects of the exact same weight, one steel and one polymer the polymer will be stronger (both will have different physical dimensions and volumes). Your comparing two objects of different weights but similar volumes.
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Fair enough. There do exist polymers with higher tensile strengths than some steels... Although in your reference they didn't mention which steel they were comparing to a very rare and expensive plastic.

I was comparing the plastics used in handgun frames to the steel used in frames...
 
1riot1ranger said:
Fair enough. There do exist polymers with higher tensile strengths than some steels... Although in your reference they didn't mention which steel they were comparing to a very rare and expensive plastic.

I was comparing the plastics used in handgun frames to the steel used in frames...
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So was I. That's why we are both right. When taking say a polymer framed Jericho and comparing it to a steel framed Jericho, the steel is stronger. If you compare a raw bar of steel to one of polymer each the same weight and shape (size will differ obviously), polymer is stronger.
 
Mini15, you just strike me as the person who needs to stir up some controversy and then watch people tie themselves up in a tizzy.
If you truly need to find out if polymer is stronger in steel I suggest you look up some engineering associations and ask them about it.
 
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There is no answer to this question as it has been worded. Quite frankly the word "strength" isn't of much worth as it is being used here either.
 
redddogg69 said:
Yes and polymer has shown to provide a weight savings while maintaining a suitable strength in comparison. So what exactly is your point here?
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I don't get why your on the offensive. I don't understand why I always have to justify my question at all, don't wanna discuss it objectively, their are plenty of other threads. You act like you own the board.

What exactly is my point? Go back to the OP, the last line is my point. Exploring the idea of if the increase in strength of an all steel construction is still relevant by today's standards. Guns of either construction can go kaboom, but can a steel frame gun mitigate this enough to be worth the constant 20oz more, etc?

black sunshine said:
also have to define (stronger) do you mean harder,////// or less prone to Breaking via piercing, crushing, cracking or shattering .
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I'd love to be able to explore that but first that involves people looking at the topic objectively and not getting all on the offensive, because your challenging their favorite type of gun.

baldabe said:
Mini15, you just strike me as the person who needs to stir up some controversy and then watch people tie themselves up in a tizzy.
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Challenging status quo of the "tactical community", one post at a time. Each section here has it's tactically accepted view, a lot of which is bull####.

Black Rifles, AFG grips and magpul dynamics stances, AR15 is king because the Marines use it

Battle Rifles, Springfield M1A is king, everything else is bs

Norinco is crap you need (insert X $2000 brand gun) yet tests by people using micrometers find that Norinco guns have superior tolerances then some "Murcian" gun manufactures.
 
As a preamble, I am speaking from the experience of only seeing kabooms on the internet. I've never experienced one myself or seen one in person, so these are my assumptions based off what I've seen in pictures....

Both a polymer gun and steel gun have steel slides and barrels, so therefore are equal in that respect when a kaboom happens. Sometimes they will hold, sometimes they will insert some very sharp pieces into your hand/eye/etc. Not cool, but also not attributed to steel or polymer.

The frame on a steel pistol seems to stay intact, for the most part, and not send pieces flying. The part that I've noticed to shatter and cause injury is generally the grip. Whether a wood grip on a 1911 or plastic grip from a P226, they don't hold up particularly well to a kaboom.

On a plastic pistol, the frame and grip are (usually?) one in the same. So I think there may be more bits and pieces sent flying. From the pictures I've seen, it usually looks like the polymer framed pistol kabooms look more devastating, with more chunks taken out. So if you are asking about strength the way I think you are, it seems like a steel pistol is stronger than a polymer framed pistol. Though it would really suck to have either kaboom, when we are talking about the actual frame of the pistol, the steel fares better.

These are just internet observations from a lowly farmer, so take them for what they are. I may well be wrong, I have been more than once before. I also may have answered a question no one was asking.
 
Both steel and polymer can crack. Both have their limits, and neither is going to be replaced by the other any time soon.
It all depends on the design - look at aluminum frame guns - something like a P226 alloy frame can last 100k+ whereas a 1911 with an alloy frame/feed ramp is not going to last as long.
Guns with polymer frames tend to have steel frame rails too, do they not?
It just depends on the application.
 
mini15 said:
Challenging status quo of the "tactical community", one post at a time. Each section here has it's tactically accepted view, a lot of which is bull####.

Black Rifles, AFG grips and magpul dynamics stances, AR15 is king because the Marines use it

Battle Rifles, Springfield M1A is king, everything else is bs

Norinco is crap you need (insert X $2000 brand gun) yet tests by people using micrometers find that Norinco guns have superior tolerances then some "Murcian" gun manufactures.
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AR15 is king because of its modularity, and relatively low cost, abundance of parts, and wide variety of calibers it is offered in.

Other than some special ed people on here very few people would pit a M1A against a Fal or G3A3. Here it was really the only option until recently, since G3s and FAL are prohib.

Norinco is crap. I'm not interested in hearing peoples personal opinion on how their rifle lasted 5 range trips with no malfunctions. Take a reputable "murican" brand like bcm or DD or Colt, which incidentally cost $1200-1600 not the $2k+ like you claimed, and run a torture test side by side with a norc. Let me know how the norc holds up. Funny then people always relegate to oh it's just a range gun at that point. It can be objectively proved that Norc is inferior to any of the quality ar brands. Not with mics, but a ton of ammo. Go ahead and prove me wrong, and I'm not even an ar guy just so you know.

As for the original question, the polymer is not susceptible to any flex problem(composites don't fatigue in any measurable way from flexing within their elastic range), there is no concern of corrosion thus any structural weakness caused by corrosion, for the strength required of a pistol frame either metal or polymer will work, polymer will get the job done with less weight. Polymers weakness is it offers poor bearing surface wear characteristics hence why most poly pistols use steel rails.
 
I think the OP is trying to compare apples to oranges. They are two different materials with different properties. It has been proven that excellent firearms can be made with polymer and as one of my favorite gun salesman would say 'It's dishwasher safe!'

My only concern with polymer is that it degrades over time. It may take a very very long time (longer than the lifetime of anyone here.) but eventually the polymer gun will become brittle and dangerous to fire. The metal firearm is susceptible to oxidization but the level of difficulty for storage so that this doesn't occur is relatively simple while the requirements to store the polymer firearm is much more difficult.

The best source of information about this is museums as they have found the preservation of plastics to be challenging. Metal, no problem but the long term preservation of polymers has been a challenge for them. This article deals with this at length: Degradation of Polymers.

What does this mean for us? Well not much really. As I said before this isn't a problem that will likely matter in our lifetime. What it means for future generations however could be very significant. Look at it this way. Every polymer gun is one less gun an 'anti' will have to worry about in 200 years while every metal gun has a good chance of still working at that time if it is looked after.
 
r34skyline said:
Norinco is crap. I'm not interested in hearing peoples personal opinion on how their rifle lasted 5 range trips with no malfunctions. Take a reputable "murican" brand like bcm or DD or Colt, which incidentally cost $1200-1600 not the $2k+ like you claimed, and run a torture test side by side with a norc. Let me know how the norc holds up. Funny then people always relegate to oh it's just a range gun at that point. It can be objectively proved that Norc is inferior to any of the quality ar brands. Not with mics, but a ton of ammo. Go ahead and prove me wrong, and I'm not even an ar guy just so you know.
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You're comparing a Norinco to rifles which from certain brands can run into the 2 grand range. No #### it's higher quality.

Compare a Norinco to a Bushmaster or DPMS AR. Fit and finish aside I bet you have similar quality.

The Norinco CanAm special are at par if not better then the comparable Springfield Armory version 1911, yea the one "made in uhmurica". It costs half the price.

Norinco SKS's are some of the highest quality SKS's out there, the Chinese give you a gun for the price some companies charge for a magazine.


It's no different then the huge craze a few years ago about having "mill spec" parts.
 
So long as the high stress areas are steel, such as chamber, feed ramp extractor, etc, then polymer is great.

Polymer does not need to be as strong as steel when used in non high stress areas like frame, grip, guide rod, etc.
 
mini15 said:
You're comparing a Norinco to rifles which from certain brands can run into the 2 grand range. No #### it's higher quality.

Compare a Norinco to a Bushmaster or DPMS AR. Fit and finish aside I bet you have similar quality.

The Norinco CanAm special are at par if not better then the comparable Springfield Armory version 1911, yea the one "made in uhmurica". It costs half the price.

Norinco SKS's are some of the highest quality SKS's out there, the Chinese give you a gun for the price some companies charge for a magazine.


It's no different then the huge craze a few years ago about having "mill spec" parts.
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This is nonsense. I saw the bolt carrier in the recent Norinco AR goes Boom thread on CGN and it looks NOTHING like a Bushmaster. It does however look Bushleague. Please go look at the photos that I'm referring to and you'll simply have to agree. I've seen better machining done on hobby lathes in residential basements than this.

Just a note, it's "mil-spec" the mil is short for military.
 
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mini15 said:
You're comparing a Norinco to rifles which from certain brands can run into the 2 grand range. No #### it's higher quality.

Compare a Norinco to a Bushmaster or DPMS AR. Fit and finish aside I bet you have similar quality.

The Norinco CanAm special are at par if not better then the comparable Springfield Armory version 1911, yea the one "made in uhmurica". It costs half the price.

Norinco SKS's are some of the highest quality SKS's out there, the Chinese give you a gun for the price some companies charge for a magazine.


It's no different then the huge craze a few years ago about having "mill spec" parts.
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Honestly dude, your lack of experience in the gun world is pushing epic proportions....
 
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