heavenIsAlie
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Abbotsford
no issues or holes in our ranges and we dont require a training course to use a holster.
Handgun Holster, what are they used for? (in canada)
- Thread starter pomelum
- Start date
- Status
Could not agree more, however many folks don't know when drawing or holstering how not to sweep themselves or others. It doesn't harmlessly jump in to the holster by itself. Once in the holster it is harmless, it's getting it there that is the problem for some people.
And then we have the situations involving trash holsters hung on makeshift belts. Or how about cross draws and holsters that don't protect the trigger or are so poorly fitted that trigger snags are highly probable. Sadly, I just don't have a high degree of faith in many people left to their own devices. If I were in charge, not only would holster certification be mandatory but there would also be some form of equipment standard. Courses for many purposes have the added benefit of being an occasion where a candidates overall deportment and skill level can be observed. I don't want to wait for Darwin's law to cull out the misfits.
I'm not trying to be a snob, but it's akin to sending someone with their learners permit onto the race track with a car they are not familiar with. If it was just their ass on the line, no problem. I would prefer that folks have a little bit of coaching prior.
HI. Keep safe and secure your handgun is best done by the owner. IN a holster when walking around or in hand during shooting. Single actions loaded with 5 rounds and hammer done on a empty chamber will not need a trigger cover, semis must have the safety on.
Dude in G.P.
CGN Regular
- Location
- Having Fun on The Firing Line
yep!I'm always amazed at how dumb some Ontarians are - the entire rest of the country reports no real issues without a holster course (and a whole bunch of other officious sounding crap) but an apparently large section of the Ontario community unleashes mayhem by using a holster without first being "qualified".
By whom? People that know what they are talking about - IPSC 'Black Badge' instructors for one, and Cowboy Action Range Officers for another.
Our club just did some phoning around to several clubs in BC to see what the current standards are re: holster use. The trend is towards a new member orientation program that includes holster qualification. Why? Because bozos are buying the "Range Kits" c/w holster and mag pouches and hitting the range with NO training. The first time you get swept by one of these self-taught bozos, you understand the need. Clubs are concerned about liability and general range safety, pretty reasonable concerns.
We don't give a ratzazz if you shoot yourself, we just don't want it to happen on our range. Want to wear a holster on our range - get checked out. End of story.
There is no formal training (i.e.Black Badge equivalent) for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting, but our club has a training program and we put on clinics for other clubs that want to host the sport. CAS requires the wearing of two revolvers, frequently one a cross draw. Drawing and re-holstering without sweeping any part of your own body or anyone else is required.
Anyone who provides this training encounters the good ol' boy syndrome - "I've always done it THIS way", which is generally incorrect and would get your butt kicked off most supervised ranges and shooting sports. It's difficult to teach most males over puberty anything about gun handling without injuring his pride and macho self image. He's seen the movies and KNOWS how it's done, even if he's never engaged in a sport requiring shooting from the leather.
Our club just did some phoning around to several clubs in BC to see what the current standards are re: holster use. The trend is towards a new member orientation program that includes holster qualification. Why? Because bozos are buying the "Range Kits" c/w holster and mag pouches and hitting the range with NO training. The first time you get swept by one of these self-taught bozos, you understand the need. Clubs are concerned about liability and general range safety, pretty reasonable concerns.
We don't give a ratzazz if you shoot yourself, we just don't want it to happen on our range. Want to wear a holster on our range - get checked out. End of story.
There is no formal training (i.e.Black Badge equivalent) for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting, but our club has a training program and we put on clinics for other clubs that want to host the sport. CAS requires the wearing of two revolvers, frequently one a cross draw. Drawing and re-holstering without sweeping any part of your own body or anyone else is required.
Anyone who provides this training encounters the good ol' boy syndrome - "I've always done it THIS way", which is generally incorrect and would get your butt kicked off most supervised ranges and shooting sports. It's difficult to teach most males over puberty anything about gun handling without injuring his pride and macho self image. He's seen the movies and KNOWS how it's done, even if he's never engaged in a sport requiring shooting from the leather.
I'm with you Mr. Sharp's,
I winter here in Texas every year. Most of my contact is with competitive shooters in most of the disciplines including USPSA and IDPA. Scorn for mandatory training is alive and well in the USA and rampant in places like Texas. I'm comfortable with the competition people but definitely not so with the general public. I've seen people at an indoor range who didn't know how to load a magazine and who didn't know how to operate the safety on their new pistol.
The other day, I went to the same range to zero a scope. At one point a group of about five young guys came in and set up in the stall next to me. They also brought their music which played loudly as they hooted and hollered as each of them shot in turn. Their idea of a training session was to empty a 30 round AR-15 magazine at rapid fire from seven yards. They also had laser equipped pistols. My friend and I stared down range in amazement as the laser floated over about 100 square feet as they emptied magazine after magazine at a full sized silouette target at seven yards. Eventually they left, the music stopped and the target was confetti. Any one of them could have gone out again, purchased another unfamiliar gun (probably in 44 Magnum) and been back on the range for more training in an hour. I'm not exaggerating.
I'm here six months a year. I've been doing this for six years and shoot with disciplined people every weekend. Because I'm the only Canadian around I often get sucked into discussions on the differences from the way things are run in Canada. I'm in no way a fan of Canadian law and regulations; far from it. But given the chance to trade for the non system in the US, no thanks! So let the whiners whine about holster requirements and others but I love to shoot and go home with my body intact and my mind at rest.
I winter here in Texas every year. Most of my contact is with competitive shooters in most of the disciplines including USPSA and IDPA. Scorn for mandatory training is alive and well in the USA and rampant in places like Texas. I'm comfortable with the competition people but definitely not so with the general public. I've seen people at an indoor range who didn't know how to load a magazine and who didn't know how to operate the safety on their new pistol.
The other day, I went to the same range to zero a scope. At one point a group of about five young guys came in and set up in the stall next to me. They also brought their music which played loudly as they hooted and hollered as each of them shot in turn. Their idea of a training session was to empty a 30 round AR-15 magazine at rapid fire from seven yards. They also had laser equipped pistols. My friend and I stared down range in amazement as the laser floated over about 100 square feet as they emptied magazine after magazine at a full sized silouette target at seven yards. Eventually they left, the music stopped and the target was confetti. Any one of them could have gone out again, purchased another unfamiliar gun (probably in 44 Magnum) and been back on the range for more training in an hour. I'm not exaggerating.
I'm here six months a year. I've been doing this for six years and shoot with disciplined people every weekend. Because I'm the only Canadian around I often get sucked into discussions on the differences from the way things are run in Canada. I'm in no way a fan of Canadian law and regulations; far from it. But given the chance to trade for the non system in the US, no thanks! So let the whiners whine about holster requirements and others but I love to shoot and go home with my body intact and my mind at rest.
carsmovies
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Mississauga, Ontario
Here we go again.
Yup, folks insisting on unnecessary crap to make the CFO feel better. I've been using holsters for 25 years, and I've never been a member of a club that requires a holster course (neither of the clubs I'm currently a member of require such a course), and I've never been a member of a club where a civilian negligently discharged a pistol causing injury. I have been a member of 3 clubs where LEO's ND a pistol from the holster, causing injury, however. I believe that due to the general conservatism of our sport, there's a psychological need to create an 'elite' group within the group - and that that is poisonous for the long term future of shooting.
carsmovies
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Mississauga, Ontario
There's nothing elite about requiring ppl to be trained with the use of firearms before wanting to have them around.
- Location
- Prince George BC
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
ONtario is full of people who believe you can never get enough training....its quite annoying sometimes. The natural progression of this logic is that everyone pays the price for the errors of one or two
what really boggles my mind is that biggest proponents of more training and more testing are those who shoot in the states....so, basically, they refuse to shoot around/with untrained individuals at their home club, but when in the US it doesn't matter so much.
Mr. Onagoth,
I might be one of those people you are referring to as regards shooting in the US. It's true that I shoot more down here than I do at home just because there's so much more available here within 15 minutes of where I live.
I'm quite satisfied with the "training" I got in Canada and particularly happy that I got my Black Badge. When I talk about supporting mandatory training, it's from the perspective of someone that regularly sees the result of selling handguns to any one that can breathe with no training whatsoever. My opinion changes when it comes to people that compete because the process of practicing with experienced and safe shooters and then shooting in the matches under carefully controlled conditions helps to create safe shooters because of the mentoring that goes on constantly.
I shoot a match here every week in one of the disciplines including USPSA. Those matches never concern me because, the safety rules are identical to those in IPSC at home. The games also include a lot of military people here and they are solid.
All that changes when you go to a public range where many of the people have no exposure to good gun handling. The Texas Concealed Carry course is just four hours now and that's all you need to carry. That is the only mandated training and much of that four hours has little to do with skills or safety. No holster work, no time spent on malfunctions and in many cases all the range time is in a booth at an indoor range with the bulk of the required rounds being at less than 15 yards into a wall sized silhouette target. Even at that, all you need is 70% as I recall.
Even if all you remember is ACT/PROVE from the initial courses and tests, that's better than what most people get down here unless they are motivated and take training at their own cost.
Even if you go to a club range in Canada, you know that people on the line have done enough to get their RPAL if you are shooting restricted and many have had to take the club safety courses with some time in live fire under supervision.
Herc
TheWharGoul
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Thunder Bay, Ontario
I wish I could sit at home and worry as much as some of you. The imaginary threats you must all face on a day to day basis is astounding. If someone in my club has a holster on, I'll watch how they act 100% of the time so far it has been safe and acceptable. I went about my business and I have no extra holes in me.
I've taken the Black Badge myself, everything holster safety wise could be taught to someone who is learning by any experienced member within an hour without all the stupid looking up answer "yes" section 1.2.5.44.78.55.3.1 BS.
So whats wrong with people just helping out other member? Or do I have to charge people and make up an official sounding title?
I've taken the Black Badge myself, everything holster safety wise could be taught to someone who is learning by any experienced member within an hour without all the stupid looking up answer "yes" section 1.2.5.44.78.55.3.1 BS.
So whats wrong with people just helping out other member? Or do I have to charge people and make up an official sounding title?
If you shoot USPSA regularly with no concerns, I might be inclined to think that your belief is that the BB shouldn't be required. After all, you have no concerns at USPSA matches right? Those don't require any holster safety course or BB.
As far as I know, most USPSA clubs do have a shooter introduction course with varying degrees of formality.
Even those that do not, the reality is the newbie is being coached by his peers when at the line. He is under the care and control of the RO.
While I think the BB course is a great way to introduce someone to the sport, I know it's not an absolute necessity. There are safeguards built into the sport to try and catch potential safety problems early.
I'm not one that thinks every single activity requires a 16 hour safety course and a framed certificate.
However, I would prefer to see someone getting some coaching prior to holstering and drawing a loaded gun.
I wouldn't suggest someone with a regular G drivers license would be safe to operate a tow motor in a warehouse without a little coaching.
I don't feel like the safety Nazi for suggesting a little guidance when using a holster.
Chuckbuster
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yeah, I have always considered this to be part of our death by a thousand regulations. Adding to the annoyance is the additional rule that "Thou Shalt Not Be Allowed To Shoot at Yon Plates Lest Thou Belongest To And Are A Card Carrying Member of a 'Holster Discipline'". So sayeth The Lord.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The reason I feel comfortable in a USPSA setting is the discipline that the matches impose. I also thought I made is clear that by being active in one of the disciplines exposes people to a lot of informal peer training and constant reminders just by watching other experienced shooters. I don't see Canadian IPSC shooters as being any better than their American cousins for that those reasons.
The general group that concerns me are the totally untrained citizens who don't have that exposure and make it up as they go along. One of the more dangerous actions for many shooters is in clearing malfunctions. IPSC and USPSA people learn the control necessary because we are under the control of an RO when those things happen and learn from those experiences. That's the basis of my point, we who compete benefit from a lot of peer experience beginning with our first club practice session and continuing with every match. To me, the BB has value because it gives you a head start and during the course you are with other beginners and benefit each time one of those people get instruction if you are watching and listening. By the end of the second day, you have repeated most of the basic moves many times. It helps.
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