Handgun Holster, what are they used for? (in canada)
- Thread starter pomelum
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Common sense ain't that common any more.
Piling on rules to counteract stupidity does not make the population more intelligent. Too many rules trying to make the world "safer" only encourage people to let others do the thinking for them.....
The reason Ontario is singled out, has nothing to do with you - or for that matter anyone else in Ontario, it's because with the possible exception of Quebec, this type of fuddism doesn't exist in the rest of the country. In places where these obstacles are erected, there's always the same type of top down, "I'm the Boss" type of board running the club. My current club has 2800 members, 10 years ago we had 800 members - we now have a program to take new shooters around the facility as an orientation, because the club is spread out and new folks were having trouble figuring out which road went where. There are courses available to all shooters, but none are required. If you represent a safety threat to other members, they will ask you to leave, if you refuse to leave the caretaker will ask you to leave - if you still refuse to leave, you're going in a squad car. Simple really. The facilities available are designed for firearms being used, and don't force shooters to be shooting on top of each other - this to me is the big issue. Proper range design makes dumb rules go away. It's very hard to build a range as a business in BC - and many other provinces, this may be why we see better facility design than elsewhere, since the club who owns the range is more intent on the shooting experience than getting the highest possible number of shooters into the smallest space, thereby yielding maximum profit.
Shooting is like many other things in life; what might be perfect for some is diluted to accommodate the average person. With shooting, it's good policy to avoid assuming that the other guy knows what he is doing. It might be a fatal error. However, under some circumstances we can be more or less assured that a reasonable level of competency prevails. That's why courses, tests and standards are in place as imperfect as they may be.
If some allowances weren't made, I wouldn't be able to shoot and would not be shooting in matches of one sort or another every week. I'm 70 years old, I'm slow to move because my legs have been shaky since birth and I've never been a natural at physical challenges. Once I get to where I need to be I can shoot with the rest and sometimes better. So thanks to those who show patience with me and to heck with those that don't. If you are very fast and accurate now, trust me that you will get slower. Eventually the only tests left are those to check for vital signs; they come quickly enough.
If some allowances weren't made, I wouldn't be able to shoot and would not be shooting in matches of one sort or another every week. I'm 70 years old, I'm slow to move because my legs have been shaky since birth and I've never been a natural at physical challenges. Once I get to where I need to be I can shoot with the rest and sometimes better. So thanks to those who show patience with me and to heck with those that don't. If you are very fast and accurate now, trust me that you will get slower. Eventually the only tests left are those to check for vital signs; they come quickly enough.
I think I get what you are trying to say...(I think)
From my point of view, If it was not for the rules, laws, responsibilities you have as a citizen you would not be living in one of the safest countries on Earth....
I hope you can take that as a compliment.
Without the rules, you guys would not know what to do... It's in embedded in your culture.
That is all I am going to say about it before this 'derails' onto something completely different.
From my point of view, If it was not for the rules, laws, responsibilities you have as a citizen you would not be living in one of the safest countries on Earth....
I hope you can take that as a compliment.
Without the rules, you guys would not know what to do... It's in embedded in your culture.
That is all I am going to say about it before this 'derails' onto something completely different.
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..."If you represent a safety threat to other members, they will ask you to leave, if you refuse to leave the caretaker will ask you to leave - if you still refuse to leave, you're going in a squad car. Simple really. The facilities available are designed for firearms being used, and don't force shooters to be shooting on top of each other - this to me is the big issue. Proper range design makes dumb rules go away...
Unfortunately there are exceptions to the rule. You can't deny it.
Unfortunately there are exceptions to the rule. You can't deny it.
Very often you can be either the only person on our club range or one of very few. It is not a supervised range in that we don't have a live on site RO. Every member is charged with enforcing the club rules.
Experience has shown us that self-taught people are potentially dangerous to themselves and others. Even worse, these self-taught people pass on their bad habits to others, just as do non-professional driving instructors.
Unfortunately, clubs are forced by liability concerns to set the bar to accommodate the lowest common denominator - the self taught gun handler. This may offend some who think their act is perfect. That is unfortunate and suggests that they might not be as competent as they would like to believe.
As a BB instructor, I've had occasion to tell someone that while he passed the basics, we still felt that he needed follow up coaching before we would feel comfortable allowing him to shoot in club matches. Why? Because once the start signal went, he went brain dead, forgetting everything he was taught. It was all two RO's could do to keep him under control.
He was downright scary, doing things like attempting to pick up a dropped magazine with a cocked & locked .45 in his hand, muzzle all over the place! Or looking over his shoulder asking for advice while shooting a stage, again muzzle pointing anywhere but down range.
Same thing in CAS. We have an individual who owns just about every classy Cowboy gun there is, but until he came to us, he had NO prior training in gun handling or shooting from the leather. After he had a few AD's and muzzle violations, we knew we had to watch him like a hawk. Eventually he decided on his own that he wasn't suited as a competitive shooter.
These are the people you have to protect your self and others from.
Experience has shown us that self-taught people are potentially dangerous to themselves and others. Even worse, these self-taught people pass on their bad habits to others, just as do non-professional driving instructors.
Unfortunately, clubs are forced by liability concerns to set the bar to accommodate the lowest common denominator - the self taught gun handler. This may offend some who think their act is perfect. That is unfortunate and suggests that they might not be as competent as they would like to believe.
As a BB instructor, I've had occasion to tell someone that while he passed the basics, we still felt that he needed follow up coaching before we would feel comfortable allowing him to shoot in club matches. Why? Because once the start signal went, he went brain dead, forgetting everything he was taught. It was all two RO's could do to keep him under control.
He was downright scary, doing things like attempting to pick up a dropped magazine with a cocked & locked .45 in his hand, muzzle all over the place! Or looking over his shoulder asking for advice while shooting a stage, again muzzle pointing anywhere but down range.
Same thing in CAS. We have an individual who owns just about every classy Cowboy gun there is, but until he came to us, he had NO prior training in gun handling or shooting from the leather. After he had a few AD's and muzzle violations, we knew we had to watch him like a hawk. Eventually he decided on his own that he wasn't suited as a competitive shooter.
These are the people you have to protect your self and others from.
That attitude is the problem and the very reason we have the firearms act. I was raised to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they did something to prove they were not being truthful.
What is wrong with that attitude? Benefit of doubt and second chance? Benefit of doubt is saying someone can ride your bike and watching them fall off.... no biggie, they'll heal and the bike can be fixed.... benefit of the doubt and the person pulls a live firearm and puts a round in someones chest standing beside him accidentally? I'll [pass on that benefit of doubt......
Some are comfortable shooting with marginal and/or unsafe gun handlers. Others not.
Competent training and instruction can and does prevent accidents with ANY potentially dangerous tool. It isn't being "irrational", it's being safe and prudent.
Competent training and instruction can and does prevent accidents with ANY potentially dangerous tool. It isn't being "irrational", it's being safe and prudent.
What you're suggesting is far more dangerous than letting a liar make a mistake every so often.
Mr. Sharp used a key word in that phrase. " Potentially" That's not being judgmental but rather it shows good judgement. The notion of self taught shortfalls is very obvious in golf. After several years of practicing the wrong things, golf instructors have a difficult time until they break the clients down to the basics. Nothing about shooting is all that instinctive for most people. when I was getting started, it was clear that I had absorbed a lot of bad practices from a lifetime of watching movies and TV. The problem in learning how to drive from relatives is well known.
When potentially lethal devices are in play, it's probably smart to assume less than perfect competence until proven otherwise. This isn't a legal or moral judgement but rather just good practice. Automobile accidents are frequently a matter of crumbled metal and broken plastic; not so with projectiles at 1200 FPS. The problem with "innocent until proven guilty" could mean someone dies. That's not fear mongering but simple fact.
I get that point, but I don't like when things are mandatory.
If you were to ask me, hey, can you go operate that excavator, I would tell you that I would be happy to try but I have no experience on the machine. If I didn't feel confident in my ability to safely draw a pistol from a holster I would look to find the appropriate education. I don't like things that are forced on me because someone might lie about their qualifications.
TheWharGoul
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It comes down to this, some people dont like being told what they can and cant do and some people like telling others what they can and cant do. This thread is a good example of those two types.
If someone is a safety concearn, deal with it. If not. LEAVE THEM ALONE. its none of your business
you walk up to me on the range asking for my qualifications on having a holstered pistol you are going to get an ear full. If I did something unsafe, fine. But otherwise F*@# OFF.
If you want to kill the shootingsports, go ahead. Make rules, force people to take payed courses. Thats a sure way to stop interest dead in its tracks. Then you can have what you wanted all along. Your little clique. Where you feel nice and safe. Congratulations on ruining an already difficult sport to enter in Canada.
If someone is a safety concearn, deal with it. If not. LEAVE THEM ALONE. its none of your business
you walk up to me on the range asking for my qualifications on having a holstered pistol you are going to get an ear full. If I did something unsafe, fine. But otherwise F*@# OFF.
If you want to kill the shootingsports, go ahead. Make rules, force people to take payed courses. Thats a sure way to stop interest dead in its tracks. Then you can have what you wanted all along. Your little clique. Where you feel nice and safe. Congratulations on ruining an already difficult sport to enter in Canada.
Whats the big deal with a holstered loaded handgun? Same safety principles apply to the firearm as in every other case, keep your damn finger off the trigger and the damn thing wont go off.
Seems pretty simple to me, or am I simplifying this way too much?
Plus, isnt the handgun a whole lot safer in holstered mode decocked/safety on?
Seems pretty simple to me, or am I simplifying this way too much?
Plus, isnt the handgun a whole lot safer in holstered mode decocked/safety on?
Pointless - some people you just can't reach, they'll always insist that carrying a pistol in a holster (loaded or otherwise, it's truly irrelevant) is an inherently unsafe activity that requires specialized training in order to accomplish with any degree of safety. They have no clue how much they sound like the people who say that keeping a firearm in a home is inherently unsafe and should require special precautions over and above what we currently are required to do by law, or those that say owning a firearm is an inherently unsafe activity and should require special precautions, above and beyond what is currently required by law.
The problem with that is, in my opinion at least, is I'm tired of altering my life due to the people who are the 'exception'.
I'd also have a problem with someone giving me grief over using a holster at a range. I carry a loaded pistol every day, yeah we all know 'that guy' in law enforcement or real life who probably should have a wooden gun and a rape whistle, but it's silly for someone to tell me 6 months of training and years of on the job carrying is not qualified enough, and I have to take a weekend course to be.
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