234 Wildcat Family....ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY

The difference in accuracy between gain and regular twist rifling is apparently related to the smoothness of the final bore surface. For whatever reason, its more difficult to lap a gain rifled bore, although I won't pretend to know why that might be. Harry Pope was reputed to make the most accurate barrels of the day, and his barrels were gain twist rifled, but he didn't lap his bores, so I don't think gain twist rifling automatically means poor accuracy. It will be interesting to see if these barrels shoot with the my standard rifled barrels, although I'm not looking for quarter MOA. My last Ron Smith barrel, a 20" stainless fluted 1:12 .375, shot like a varmint rifle, but was the standard style twist.

Good point on the effects of twist on thin jacketed bullets.

Don't know about the accuracy thing personally, just going by what my barrel making buddy and an old bench shooter/gunsmith said. Both of whose opinions I hold in high regard. One should probably talk to Ron Smith, as he is probably the best authority on gain twist we have in Canada anyway.
I intend to build 2 identical rifles or maybe even use the same action, one with the 1-8 and another with the 1-16-8, both unturned heavy barrels and see if they shoot differently. Still not a real test as they will be different barrels but if one uses 2 blanks in the same steel from the same bar and makes both barrels at the same time on the same equipment, it will be about as close a comparison as possible. Can always contour them later and see how they shoot after contouring as compared to before for another test.
 
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Ron suggested the gain twist due to the fast twist I wanted. I haven't tried it before, so I thought it was worth a shot, as the theory of starting the spin slow then accelerating as it moves down the bore makes sense to me.
 
Boomer, talked it over with my barrel buddy today and we decided to go with a straight 1-8 twist Ackley designed button for the start up then may go for a gain twist later. The gain twist is a pull button and my buddy has set up his equipment primarily as a pusher rifling machine. He has done pull buttoning gain twist rifling, but he said it is a lot of dicking around and he was never all that happy with the end product. We'll have to see, but it doesn't take months to get different buttons, it is a matter of weeks if we decide we want to change or go to a gain button.
The gain twist was invented to use heavy for cal lead bullets which used to strip when started into a sharp twist rifling so it was determined that starting it in a slow twist and then accelerating the twist as the bullet accelerated down the barrel should alleviate the stripping or skidding problem, and it did. Just a little trivia there Boomer, it happened around the same time as paper patching.
 
Which is another reason I think the gain twist concept is interesting. Most of my cast shooting has been through 1:10 or 1:12 .30 caliber barrels, but when I tried it in my 1:8, as you suggested the bullets stripped through the rifling, leaving a shotgun pattern on the target and my bore full of lead. Reducing the velocity to nearly subsonic levels made no difference, thus my target rifle is decidedly a non-lead proposition. I was able to get pretty good accuracy in the .375 Ruger, .375 H&H, and the .375 Ultra (all 1:12) with 300 gr cast over appropriate charges of Unique. But this new .375 barrel is going to be 1:10 which with standard rifling might strip the bullet like my 1:8 .30 caliber barrel did, but with the gain twist, and low (even for cast) velocity of 1200 fps, the gain twist might allow it to work.

Harry Pope lived through the years where great strides were made in firearm technology, being born in the 1860s, he was still making barrels into the 1940s, having surpassed 80 years. His barrels were the best available from the days when lead ruled, and a bullet was pushed down the bore through a false muzzle, until it contacted the mouth of the cartridge in the chamber. Among other things, his barrels were rifled with a gain twist. Pope barrels stood the test of the transition to copper jacketed bullets loaded from the breach, and as far as I know he never changed his method of rifling to accommodate copper jackets. Even so, Pope barrels continued to dominate the big money rifle matches. Whether they would do so in today's quarter minute world is debatable, but now I'm really curious to see just how well a gain twist barrel might shoot.
 
If anybody else watching this thread with rapt interest wants to make a donation to the project, please send me a pm.

Doug
 
A couple of questions from a decidely "non-technical" firearms user.

In my small brain I envision a rifle with similar recoil as the .223. Would any of the proposed new .234's end up with similar recoil? Personally I would not want to end up in the recoil range of a .243 or I would simply shoot my .243. Yes, there are recoil issues but this is not the post to discuss it.

I really like my 6.5 x 55 and would love to try a rifle such as the .234 x 55 but any guesses as to barrel life and recoil on such a caliber?

The Chinese military use a 5.8 x 42 which is a .236. As the article states, they claim it outperforms the .223 but what else would they claim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.8x42mm_DBP87

At some point in the project will it be possible for a "non-technical" firearms user to simply purchase one of the .234's being created?

I sent a PM to Doug to donate to the project mostly because I support non-linear thinking...lol...and I have faint hopes of someday owning one version of the .234
Regards,
Dave.​
 
d4dave1..........Recoil is a product of bullet weight, velocity, powder charge and rifle weight, caliber doesn't really factor into it, so it's a matter of how one loads his cartridges. The performance expectations are in the range of the 243 Win/6mm Rem/6mm-284 so the recoil will be virtually the same in the same weight rifle. I'm not going to buy a reamer initially for the 23X222 Rem mag, but it was discussed as one of the potential family, perhaps the smallest of the family. I have a gunsmith friend who's an old bench shooter and is interested in building a 23 on the 6mm BR case, this is a super efficient case and should be quite interesting to see what it does in 23 cal. Who knows, maybe it'll be the new bench rest darling.
It is not hard to outperform the 223 in my opinion, it was designed with a lot of compromises in mind, for the military, and was also designed as a fully automatic cartridge exclusively. The criteria for a full auto cartridge are significantly different from that of, say a benchrest cartridge, or a bolt action rifle cartridge. I'm not saying they can't cross over but their design criteria necessitate features that may not make the best cartridge for that bore size. The 222 RM is a much superior cartridge from a design standpoint and can and has been built in a rifle capable of benchrest accuracy, I'm not aware of any bench shooter ever using the 223 for competition, I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of it.
As to your last question, the answer is a faltering probably..........I will have to do a bunch of "wringing out" of this caliber before I'd be willing to build for general consumption. There will never be factory ammo or even load data for any of my little cult family, so I'll be "flying in the dark", with these cartridges. Extrapolation can guide quite well but one never knows what curves will be thrown at them when playing with wildcats. I have a couple very experienced guys for 2 of the family to wring out, will be looking for more as the days draw nigh. Wildcatting requires a firm grasp of how the pressure curves for certain powders, in certain bore sizes, with certain case capacities, behind certain bullet weights, will function. Most very experienced handloaders would have a good idea of what powders would be best suited to given case capacities to bore size ratios. I am going to try to work up loads with at least 6 different powders within the appropriate burn rates for each case with additional ones best suited to the different bullet weights we are going to use.
Hope this answers your questions.

Douglas

PS, one must also consider the safety of future generations who may encounter these rifles and have zero data from which to work, that is why it is imperative to work up data for each cartridge and publish it in one form or another. It would be nice if the data were still available 50 years from now when this whole experiment is long forgotten, but some rifles may still exist.
 
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Tagged for high interest. For a name for the cartridge I'm gonna suggest the 230 Albertan. Or 234 Alberta. Of course maybe the creators last name too. There's a lot of info here and I sort if scanned the thread. I'll give it a better look when I get home in the computer. Instead if I phone. What casing were you thinking of modifying for the .23 cal project ? Oh nevermind guess your still working on it.
 
I think it would be a good seller in alberta(hence my cartridge name suggestion). A good for everything rifle. I'd sure get one. My suggestion for a parent case would be a 22-250 with the high angle shoulder as in a 22-250 ai.or 40 degrees. Wouldn't be as hard on barrels or shoulders as a 243. Plus you could simply fire form 22250 brass. Coyotes wolves and deer wouldn't stand a chance. Throw in the odd gopher patch and it would be right at home here in alberta. With the right 80 gr or so match round might be good for the long range club too. I m gonna try to donate too for this project but am in near dire financial straights at moment. X mas debt. New truck and a new job I'm a bit strapped. Just my 2 cents.too bad you weren't closer so I could at least help out with load development and testing
 
I think it would be a good seller in alberta(hence my cartridge name suggestion). A good for everything rifle. I'd sure get one. My suggestion for a parent case would be a 22-250 with the high angle shoulder as in a 22-250 ai.or 40 degrees. Wouldn't be as hard on barrels or shoulders as a 243. Plus you could simply fire form 22250 brass. Coyotes wolves and deer wouldn't stand a chance. Throw in the odd gopher patch and it would be right at home here in alberta. With the right 80 gr or so match round might be good for the long range club too. I m gonna try to donate too for this project but am in near dire financial straights at moment. X mas debt. New truck and a new job I'm a bit strapped. Just my 2 cents.too bad you weren't closer so I could at least help out with load development and testing

It WILL be worth your time to actually READ the thread...........;)

Doug
 
I think it would be a good seller in alberta(hence my cartridge name suggestion). A good for everything rifle. I'd sure get one. My suggestion for a parent case would be a 22-250 with the high angle shoulder as in a 22-250 ai.or 40 degrees. Wouldn't be as hard on barrels or shoulders as a 243. Plus you could simply fire form 22250 brass. Coyotes wolves and deer wouldn't stand a chance. Throw in the odd gopher patch and it would be right at home here in alberta. With the right 80 gr or so match round might be good for the long range club too. I m gonna try to donate too for this project but am in near dire financial straights at moment. X mas debt. New truck and a new job I'm a bit strapped. Just my 2 cents.too bad you weren't closer so I could at least help out with load development and testing

Please read back as I have answered all your questions as this thread has progressed........it isn't a single cartridge either it's going to be a family of 23 cal cartridges. 23-250 is indeed one, Republic of Albeta on this forum wants to wring that one out. I will also be making one using the 6.5X55 case and another using the 284 Win case and another using the 243 case. I'm toying with the possibility of using a 204/222 RM case as well, and Guntech wants to build one on a 6mmBR case. The only solid name at this point is the 234 Penguin (6.5X55) Kamlooky threw that one out and I like it, so the Penguin it is. I'm thinking 234 Panda for the 284 case..........I'm also liking 230 Housecat for the 222 RM case and maybe 234 Koala for the 250-3000 case. The bench boys will of course just call theirs the 23 BR.........
 
Just a note to publicly thank "Doug" for his donation to the project, and his support verbally for a couple of threads I've started here. Thank you Doug, it is greatly appreciated !!!!
 
Just a note to publicly thank "Doug" for his donation to the project, and his support verbally for a couple of threads I've started here. Thank you Doug, it is greatly appreciated !!!!


Douglas, the fellow who needs to be thanked for all of this is YOU! I am just a curious bystander...........

Doug
 
I think necking up the. 221 fb to. 45 would be a cool wildcat. This takes second place in my eyes.

How would you propose to do that, and what would you use to headspace on...........anyway the case isn't large enough diameter to run up to 458 ID as it only measures .473 at the web OD. Physical impossibility on this wildcat, I suggest you rethink the matter.
 
I think necking up the. 221 fb to. 45 would be a cool wildcat. This takes second place in my eyes.

That would be a VERY cool wildcat for sure, given that it would involve magical properties. You could call it the .45 Gandalf...........

Doug
 
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