.308 Palma brass and heavy bullets

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cbh560

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I had a discussion the other day about heavy vs. lighter bullets for long range shooting with a .308. Of course there is the obvious velocity advantage of lighter bullets and the obvious wind-bucking ability of higher BC heavier bullets. However, we started talking about how to increase velocity of the heavies. The suggestion that was made was to use .308 Palma brass in order to utilize the thicker web of the brass. The idea being that the thicker small primer brass would be able to handle more pressure, and in turn provide more velocity. The heavies in question are the 190 and 200 gr Sierra MK's.

Does anyone have any experience using these heavy bullets with small primer palma brass? Is there any trouble with ignition of powder? Significant velocity gains without seeing pressure signs on the brass?
 
Curious, but wouldn't the thicker brass have LESS volume and thus have pressures peaking (spiking) earlier? I think you'd limit your velocities by using heavier brass. I'd suggest you try loading the heavies in regular brass and seeing if you find any worthwhile gain in performance WITHOUT going over max limits in manuals. Best of luck.
 
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
 
sunray said:
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
Click to expand...

German Salazar had a article on the small primer pocket of the 308 you and the O P could read, cannot find the link at the moment,

until we find out how fast the O P is actually pushing a weight and brand of bullet perhaps those in the know do not wish to answer, especially when a day later he is asking "anybody know" and why no answers

go slow my friend this is a topic to approach with caution

the USA nationals and worlds had FTR shooters using heavy 308 bulets and that knowledge is out there and some here will help you find it, that question has current answers, it just takes some time to gather them up to show you

Jefferson
 
sunray said:
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
Click to expand...

if there is no palma brass why is lapua palma 308 brass listed on the hirsch site?
 
sunray said:
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
Click to expand...



......here is a picture of the non existing 308 palma small primer with the smaller flash hole .... didn't have to research as I had them in my hand ...hope this helps
 
I wouldn't bother with the Sierra's as the Berger 200 Hybrid has a far better BC and that is what you are after. The Brits first starting doing this but they shoot in a peculiar stable temperature zone using custom tight actions. When they came to NA and elsewhere they began to have issues with the high pressure loads. Some of those loads were tested to 90,000 psi from my understanding and that is in the realm of action proof loads. One day somebody is going to load one on those loads into a Savage and turn it into a hand grenade.

It is possible to run 200 grain bullets out of a 30" barrel at just below 2600 fps without high pressure using standard primer cases and shoot bugholes at 300 meters. Any increase in velocity from that doesn't practically decrease your wind drift scores much and you are a lot safer.

I would very much like to see the small primer brass banned in competition for exactly the reasons you have asked information for. I don't want to be laying beside somebody shooting these over pressure loads and detonate an action.

Steve
 
This,
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
Click to expand...
then this

pmatuk said:


......here is a picture of the non existing 308 palma small primer with the smaller flash hole .... didn't have to research as I had them in my hand ...hope this helps
Click to expand...

=FUNNY:bangHead:
 
sunray said:
There's no such thing as .308 Palma brass. It's a marketing thing. Those bullet weights are made more for the .300 Mag too.
The size of the primer means nothing anyway.
Click to expand...

Your sig line says that spelling and grammar count..........well so do facts and knowledge, and when you lack these perhaps it's time to sit back and just read, you might learn something rather once again sprinkle salt on your foot and insert it deep in your mouth..........

cheers........
 
And I am pretty sure I still have some Palma brass around here marked "92 Palma". It has a regular large primer pocket, unlike the new Lapua Palma brass with the small primer pocket. Again sunray, if you don't know, just keep your fingers off the keyboard.

To the OP...Some individuals and some teams went to the last Palma with the new Lapua Palma brass thinking it would give them the advantage. The Brits who won the team match used Bredan primed brass that they sold off a scrap afterwards.
 
cbh560 said:
I had a discussion the other day about heavy vs. lighter bullets for long range shooting with a .308. Of course there is the obvious velocity advantage of lighter bullets and the obvious wind-bucking ability of higher BC heavier bullets. However, we started talking about how to increase velocity of the heavies. The suggestion that was made was to use .308 Palma brass in order to utilize the thicker web of the brass. The idea being that the thicker small primer brass would be able to handle more pressure, and in turn provide more velocity. The heavies in question are the 190 and 200 gr Sierra MK's.

Does anyone have any experience using these heavy bullets with small primer palma brass? Is there any trouble with ignition of powder? Significant velocity gains without seeing pressure signs on the brass?
Click to expand...

Using a small primer in a .308 Win case is an idea that has been tried a few times over the years (Remington "BR" brass, and recently Lapua ".308 Palma" brass). Some have had good results (more uniform muzzle velocities - this helps accuracy at 1000 yards), some have had poor results (unreliable ignition, or erratic behaviour at cooler temperatures).

If you are not a reloading expert, the best recommendation is probably to tell you that small primer .308 brass will likely give you problems and will not likely give you any benefits. It's probably best to summarize it as an exotic and experimental item that an expert reloader has in his toolbox. If you are a reloading expert, you'll understand what the tradeoffs are and how to assess your results.

If what you are actually interested in is having as good a long range .308 load as you can reasonably get, there are other paths *much* more worthwhile and productive than investigating small-primer brass:
- most important of all is to choose a GOOD BULLET. The two most important aspects of a bullet are its PERFORMANCE (how little it gets blown around by the wind), and its EASE OF USE (how easy it is to develop an accurate load, which will continue to be accurate in warmer and cooler temperatures, and in 500 or 1000 rounds time when the throat has eroded a bit as is normal)

The 190 Sierra MK is a medium-performance bullet. It is a very reliable and "easy" bullet - it is un-fussy and easy to develop a good accurate load with it.

There are higher-performance bullets out there. The Berger 185 LRBT is quite a bit better ballistically, and it is also an "easy" bullet to develop an accurate load for. The Berger 185 Hybrid is also quite good. Bergers tend to be more expensive than Sierras.

There are heavier, higher-performance bullets out there - Berger 210 VLD, Sierra 210 MK, Berger 215 Hybrid and 230 Hybrid. These are increasingly specialized bullets, which tend to take more effort and shooting and reloading experience in order to get topnotch results from.
 
I am currently waiting on the a .308 build and have plenty of time to research loads, bullets, etc. I was planning on sticking with a bullet like the 190 Sierras for reasons such as rnbra-shooter mentioned. They can be quite accurate, without being to much of a PITA to develop a good load. As well, some of the Bergers and other "fancy" bullets can be hard to lay hands on, not to mention pricey. I am in no way an expert reloader, but I do take my time and I prefer quality over quantity. I don't mind spending the time and the components to develop a good load. I do have quality equipment, but I don't have super high end equipment. This .308 will be my first venture in shooting past 600 yards, so I am basically spitballing ideas and seeing what others have done.

For me, safety is always a concern, especially for those around me. I never push a load past the published max values. This whole idea is currently a hypothetical situation in which I don't currently have any plans to follow through with, but wanted to see if anyone has.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Using a small primer in a .308 Win case is an idea that has been tried a few times over the years (Remington "BR" brass, and recently Lapua ".308 Palma" brass). Some have had good results (more uniform muzzle velocities - this helps accuracy at 1000 yards), some have had poor results (unreliable ignition, or erratic behaviour at cooler temperatures).

If you are not a reloading expert, the best recommendation is probably to tell you that small primer .308 brass will likely give you problems and will not likely give you any benefits. It's probably best to summarize it as an exotic and experimental item that an expert reloader has in his toolbox. If you are a reloading expert, you'll understand what the tradeoffs are and how to assess your results.

If what you are actually interested in is having as good a long range .308 load as you can reasonably get, there are other paths *much* more worthwhile and productive than investigating small-primer brass:
- most important of all is to choose a GOOD BULLET. The two most important aspects of a bullet are its PERFORMANCE (how little it gets blown around by the wind), and its EASE OF USE (how easy it is to develop an accurate load, which will continue to be accurate in warmer and cooler temperatures, and in 500 or 1000 rounds time when the throat has eroded a bit as is normal)

The 190 Sierra MK is a medium-performance bullet. It is a very reliable and "easy" bullet - it is un-fussy and easy to develop a good accurate load with it.

There are higher-performance bullets out there. The Berger 185 LRBT is quite a bit better ballistically, and it is also an "easy" bullet to develop an accurate load for. The Berger 185 Hybrid is also quite good. Bergers tend to be more expensive than Sierras.

There are heavier, higher-performance bullets out there - Berger 210 VLD, Sierra 210 MK, Berger 215 Hybrid and 230 Hybrid. These are increasingly specialized bullets, which tend to take more effort and shooting and reloading experience in order to get topnotch results from.
Click to expand...

Good points Daniel - good results can still be obtained with the large primer 308 case. I would also offer a third criteria - AVAILABILITY - what can you get locally. There are a lot of new and exotic bullets being reviewed and tested, but you should base your needs on what you can purchase regularly.
 
cbh560 said:
I had a discussion the other day about heavy vs. lighter bullets for long range shooting with a .308. Of course there is the obvious velocity advantage of lighter bullets and the obvious wind-bucking ability of higher BC heavier bullets. However, we started talking about how to increase velocity of the heavies. The suggestion that was made was to use .308 Palma brass in order to utilize the thicker web of the brass. The idea being that the thicker small primer brass would be able to handle more pressure, and in turn provide more velocity. The heavies in question are the 190 and 200 gr Sierra MK's.

Does anyone have any experience using these heavy bullets with small primer palma brass? Is there any trouble with ignition of powder? Significant velocity gains without seeing pressure signs on the brass?
Click to expand...

When loads exceed standard magnum pressures (over 65,000psi), tuning can start to get fussy and things can go very wrong very fast. For better or worst, there is trend to push loads to levels that run very real equipment risks.

From the perspective of a LR F TR shooter, the most important goal for my ammo is dead reliable and predictable performance on target. Any errant shot is going to cost more then a lost point. Loads that are fussy and go in/out of tune through my shooting day has no place in my ammo box. If I get an overpressure and lock up my rifle, my day and match is likely at risk.

Finally, there is NOTHING you can do with a 308 case that will keep you in the 5 Ring if you miss a 2mph wind change... NOTHING. So I choose to keep my loads sane, stable and learn to read the flags.

For a reference, all these super sized ubber pressure loads raise the velocity at most 100fps over saner loads (most are only 50/75fps). And there is a very real risk tuning will be a PITA.

See if the ballistics justify the risks.....

And bore wear is greatly increased. Some competitors are reporting toasting pipes in as little as 1200rds with a 308!!!!

I do not use nor recommend SR brass. All you need is 1 misfire due to a weak primer to cost a match. Even magnum SR don't have a lot of juice so the affect of bad primers is compounded in your ammo.

LR primer, sane loading, consistent and reliable accuracy.... works for me and let's me focus on what matters... the wind.

Jerry
 
cbh560 said:
I had a discussion the other day about heavy vs. lighter bullets for long range shooting with a .308. Of course there is the obvious velocity advantage of lighter bullets and the obvious wind-bucking ability of higher BC heavier bullets. However, we started talking about how to increase velocity of the heavies. The suggestion that was made was to use .308 Palma brass in order to utilize the thicker web of the brass. The idea being that the thicker small primer brass would be able to handle more pressure, and in turn provide more velocity. The heavies in question are the 190 and 200 gr Sierra MK's.

Does anyone have any experience using these heavy bullets with small primer palma brass? Is there any trouble with ignition of powder? Significant velocity gains without seeing pressure signs on the brass?
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the frontal area of a small primer vs large primer?
I've heard this dicussion before. It may have some validity.

Since a large primer exposes more surface it will have a higher load (pushing back = force).
If the pressures are equal, a small primer with less surface combined with a base that may be more ridgid
because of the smaller hole, might equate to more pressure before you actually see primer evidence.

Any thoughts on this?
 
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