Dominion of Canada marked Winchester Saddle Ring Carbines

[Mike Webb]

I recently acquired an 1894 Winchester saddle ring carbine in .30WCF. It dates to 1915 and is in great condition apart from the fact that some moron hand polished ALL!! the patina and remaining blue from the receiver. When I picked it up I noticed the DCP crossed flags just forward of the Winchester barrel proof. Stocks are gumwood and surprisingly completely unmarked and barrel and mag tube have around 90% blue remaining, bore is perfect.
I poked around online and found two different schools of thought as to where they came from. Apparently in 1914 the British Royal Navy purchased 5,000 94 IN .30WCF and 20,000 92 carbines in 44WCF. Canadian inspectors went to Winchester to inspect and stamp them. The story goes they were shipped to Halifax Naval Yard for delivery to the Royal Navy. They were used on mine sweepers and such for the duration of the war. There is a documented account of a British seaman opening fire with a Winchester at a German sub running on the surface at 150 yards.
This author claims Canada never purchased any lever rifles at this time.
Another author claimed that the rifles were purchased by Canada and used for guarding some federal government sites and by prison guards. I tend to go with the British Navy version as the author has paper work for some 2800 1894 carbines being sold as surplus in 1920. Anyone have any info on these rifles?

 

[sunray]

Used on the West Coast by militia/coast watchers during both Wars, as I recall. There has been some discussion on the Milsurp forum, I think, over the years. Some discussions got kind of heated too, as I recall. Don't think the stocks were ever "gumwood" though. Absolutely not BP nor antiques. No antique lever actions in Canada.

 

[mooncoon]

Used on the West Coast by militia/coast watchers during both Wars, as I recall. There has been some discussion on the Milsurp forum, I think, over the years. Some discussions got kind of heated too, as I recall. Don't think the stocks were ever "gumwood" though. Absolutely not BP nor antiques. No antique lever actions in Canada.

The "fishermen's navy" used Winchester and Marlin 30-30s with a broad arrow inside a C stamped on the lower front left corner of the receiver. I think the Marlin rifles are far less common as I have never seen one but have seen a number of the Winchesters. Ammunition was full metal jacket. I also a bit skeptical about a gumwood stock

cheers mooncoon

 

[Matt74]

I am aware of the British Navy info, and believe it is likely correct. Gumwood is also correct for the time period. Many 1894s from the mid teens (WWI era) will be found stocked with gumwood. The 94s which were used on the West Coast are what are colloquially called PCMRs and were used by the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers - different, and much later rifles. PCMRS all fall in the approximate 1,300,000 s/n range, in the 1940s.

Matt

 

[Mike Webb]

Yeah, these rifles, both 1892 and 1894 carbines all fall in 1914-1915 production. I have personally handled five, three 92's and two 94's, all had gumwood stocks most badly dented as this stuff is about as soft as pine. The only military markings on the WW1 carbines are the crossed flags DCP on the barrel. The PCMR rifles(WW2) were marked on steel and wood with the Canadian broad arrow, had military type slings and were purchased from both Winchester (94 carbines and 64 rifles) and Marlin( model 36). I have heard stories that these '14-'15 carbines were used by prison guards but I have doubts that they were ever used officially by the Canadian government. Never thought but I should have posted in the milsurp forum. MODS FEEL FREE TO MOVE THIS THREAD TO THE MILSURP FORUM.

 

[mooncoon]

Must be a different gum wood than I am used to. In this neck of the woods, gum wood is a type of eucalyptus and is a heavy hard wood. It is used for cap rails on boats as well as rubbing strips and sometimes along the chine for protection against ice damage. Also used on the bow to protect the planking from damage from the anchor when it is being hauled

cheers mooncoon

 

[bear.23]

I have one dated about the same.. I was told mine came out of Kingston Pen.

 

[Mike Webb]

Must be a different gum wood than I am used to. In this neck of the woods, gum wood is a type of eucalyptus and is a heavy hard wood. It is used for cap rails on boats as well as rubbing strips and sometimes along the chine for protection against ice damage. Also used on the bow to protect the planking from damage from the anchor when it is being hauled

cheers mooncoon

Collectors call it gumwood, I have also heard it called boxwood and linden, don't know which is correct if any of them. Apparently around WW1 there was a shortage of black walnut or it could have been a cost cutting measure in part as well. I have only ever seen carbines so stocked and they are usually easy to tell because on a well hunted rifle they will be a mass of dents.

 

[Mike Webb]

I have one dated about the same.. I was told mine came out of Kingston Pen.

I wish there were more info out there regarding these Royal Navy purchased Winchesters. I know they were sold as surplus following WW1 by Great Britain and exported because no examples have been found with British commercial proofs. Some found there way here and appparently they are often seen in Australia and New Zealand. I wish I knew if they were maybe sold to the Canadian government and had documentation that they were actually used by prison guards etc.

 

[Road King]

I wish there were more info out there regarding these Royal Navy purchased Winchesters. I know they were sold as surplus following WW1 by Great Britain and exported because no examples have been found with British commercial proofs. Some found there way here and appparently they are often seen in Australia and New Zealand. I wish I knew if they were maybe sold to the Canadian government and had documentation that they were actually used by prison guards etc.

Hi Mike I have a fair amount of information on these guns at home. When I get there I will send you what I have. I will leave you with the following photo showing some Royal Navy Cadets carrying the Winchesters.

 

[Road King]

Mike, you may have already seen this as I have posted it somewhere.







The figure of 5,000 relates to the purchase by the British Admiralty in 1915, for use on miscellaneous craft as protection against mines and German E and U boats. There is at least one record of a Winchester repeater being used against a German sub-marine at about 150 yards. It may have been a Model 1892 SRC in 44/40 which the Admiralty purchased 20,000 of at the same time as the 5,000 Models 1894 carbines in 30WCF. The DCP mark was applied by Canadian inspectors at the Winchester factory.

You will notice the mistake in the big contract book held at the National Archives in London, where I took this picture. The calibre is of course 30WCF and not .303. Sir Trevor Dawson was the Managing Director of Vickers who was sent over to use his influence to buy some rifles which the Royal Navy were chronically short of. He ended up buying sporting arms as you can see, with the exception of the 250 Ross rifles.

The other reference is from an official Admiralty book, history of technical problems in WW1. It does not mention the 5,000 Model 1894 SRC, which is an error.

Here is a couple that I have owned


Never been able translate the PN1 on this one




Brian

 

[Mike Webb]

Thanks a lot, Brian I would appreciate the info. Here are a couple pics of mine. Someone hand polished the receiver on all surfaces, big mistake but it is what it is. At least they didn't hit it with a buffing wheel, all corners are sharp and screws are perfect. I cold blued the action as I figured it couldn't make it any worse and I can always remove it with a little white vinager. I would really like to knoow how these rifles ended up here though. Were they sold to the Canadian government and actually used in prisons etc or just sold as general war surplus?

 

[Win 38-55]

From that photo, all the receivers are much shinier than the barrels and mag tubes. Did they hand polish of the receiver blue to distinguish these guns from the normal SRC's?

 

[Mike Webb]

From that photo, all the receivers are much shinier than the barrels and mag tubes. Did they hand polish of the receiver blue to distinguish these guns from the normal SRC's?

They are quite light in the old cadet photo. But the finish wore/flaked off the old 94's action very quickly.
When I got mine it had a tang peep and still had original blue beneath so I don't think mine was polished by the British.
But having a way to differentiate between 1892 and 1894 carbines may have been important especially considering British naval personnel would have had practically no exposure to rifles in civiilan life. Perhaps they did shine them up, hadn't thought of that.

 

[buffdog]

.
Much of the information on the WWI private purchases came to light when SMELLIE and I were researching some markings on the Ross rifles a few years ago. We got excellent co-operation and information from the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy archives and Museums.

Some misinformation on the documents as shown in ROAD KING's post is due to the fact that this inventory at the time (after WWI), was compiled by people who were not familiar with weapons or typographical errors. The "1892 Remington 44 calibre" rifles were really Remington 14 1/2 pump guns. You will find them with the 1/4 inch "N" Naval markings and "DCP" proof marks on them. The "9mm" Mauser rifles were in 7 mm (7x57) calibre and came from the requisitioned Armstrong Battleships being built for other countries. (The Chilean Admiralte Latttore became the HMS Canada. It was refurbished during the 1920s for Chile and the small arms provided were Canadian ROSS rifles.)

The Canadian Government sent inspectors to the United States to inspect these firearms and put proof markings on them. Canadian proof markings were accepted as equals with the British proof markings. The Agent who represented the British in the United States was the financeer, J.P. Morgan.

As mentioned, much of this is in the Milsurps Forum on GunNutz.
.

 

[Mike Webb]

.
Much of the information on the WWI private purchases came to light when SMELLIE and I were researching some markings on the Ross rifles a few years ago. We got excellent co-operation and information from the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy archives and Museums.

Some misinformation on the documents as shown in ROAD KING's post is due to the fact that this inventory at the time (after WWI), was compiled by people who were not familiar with weapons or typographical errors. The "1892 Remington 44 calibre" rifles were really Remington 14 1/2 pump guns. You will find them with the 1/4 inch "N" Naval markings and "DCP" proof marks on them. The "9mm" Mauser rifles were in 7 mm (7x57) calibre and came from the requisitioned Armstrong Battleships being built for other countries. (The Chilean Admiralte Latttore became the HMS Canada. It was refurbished during the 1920s for Chile and the small arms provided were Canadian ROSS rifles.)

The Canadian Government sent inspectors to the United States to inspect these firearms and put proof markings on them. Canadian proof markings were accepted as equals with the British proof markings. The Agent who represented the British in the United States was the financeer, J.P. Morgan.

As mentioned, much of this is in the Milsurps Forum on GunNutz.
.

From what I have been able to learn the 9mm rifles WERE 9mm rifles. The British Navy also ordered a batch of 7mm Remington rolling blocks at the time. They really must have been desperate as the logistics of feeding all of these different calibre weapons was ridiculous.

 

[TonyE]

From what I have been able to learn the 9mm rifles WERE 9mm rifles. The British Navy also ordered a batch of 7mm Remington rolling blocks at the time. They really must have been desperate as the logistics of feeding all of these different calibre weapons was ridiculous.

May I ask exactly what type of 9mm rifles you believe these to be?

Having spent a great deal of time researching the secondary weapons used in WWI for my series of books, I must agree with buffdog that this is an error in the Admiralty Technical Index (one of several) and they are in fact the 7mm Brazilian and Chilean Mauser rifles seized from ships nearing completion.

There is a great photo of a civilian crew, probably from a mine sweeping trawler or similar, practising fixing bayonets. Most have Ross rifles but two have 7mm Chilean Mausers. There are also British military packets of 7mm Mauser ammo marked for Chilean Mausers used for mine clearing. I can post the pictures if interested.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Mike Webb]

You are probably correct about the mistake in the paper work. I can not think of any military rifle, European or South American that was chambered for the 9mm round as these were strictly a sporting proposition I think. These Royal Navy Winchesters are a mystery as little info exists similar to the Belgian Congo 1894 carbines. Apparently around 200 were sold complete with sling swivels and slings, the odd one turns up but generates little interest amongst collectors despite their rarity. I have read that some of the 1894 carbines of the Navy purchase were used by the Royal Flying Corps in WW1.
The Royal Navy even issued Arisaka rifles in WW1 and these were unpopular with the sailors.

 

[TonyE]

As far as I know, the RFC made no use of Winchester M94 carbines during the war. What they did have were M1886 rifles in .45-90 calibre and tracer and incendiary loads were developed for these.

Details of the rifles and ammunition are in Part 2 of my secondary weapons books.

Regards
tonye

 

[AlanDavid]

Road King

I have seen the PN1 marking once before on a carbine which was for sale by a UK dealer. That carbine had been deactivated. I take it your carbine is not deactivated.

For the record the picture of the order by Sir Trevor Dawson for various Winchester Remington and Ross rifles was actually taken my myself. Also the bulk of your text is from an e-mail I sent to someone, cant remember who.

Interesting how information travels via the internet.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney