#4 MK1 What the heck rifling is this ???????????

Skylark 4

Skylark 4

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:confused: Ok Guys, I picked up a Maltby #4 Mk1 Sporty at the Saskatoon Gun show last Sat. Looked to be in fairly good shape. Barrel is intact, Blueing is So So, but I can live with that for $165. Couldn't look down the bore at the show as the bolt's were Ziptied closed( that right there should of said WALK AWAY !!) Anyway, get her home and straight to gun room for a good scrubbing. So after 4 days and 1/2 bottle of Hoppes #9, its squeaky clean inside BUT what the HELL type of rifling does it have ?? Looks like a SMOOTH BORE with 2 1/8th inch groove's set at 180 degree's to each other ! Instead of the rifling protruding INTO the bore, it's recessed AWAY from the bore. Very strange. Slugged it and came out at .314. Will be interesting to see how it shoots.

Ken
 
It will likely shoot as well as any 4-5-6 groove barrel.

Two groove barrels were used on No 4 rifles and some 1903 springfields. This was done to make production faster and likely cheaper.

As far as only Savage or Long Branch making them, I don't know. I do know that thousands of two groove barrels were sent to the UK for assembly during WWII. This actually shows how good the tolerances were back then. Get parts from off shore or from different jobbers and they fit well enough without much if any fitting.
 
Most modern bullets for reloading the .303British are .311" diameter, but Hornady's are .312". That little extra might help with your .314" bore.
 
I had a Savage 2 groove that I had rechambered to .303 Epps. The barrel was actually pretty tight at .310 in the grooves and shot .308 180gr Partitions into 1 1/2" groups and Speer .311 180gr Hot Cor's into sub moa groups.

2 groove barrels will shoot.
 
Bearhunter is right, the 2 groove was a cost cutting measure implimented during WW2. For the Remington 1903 Springfield, Remington was usinging old tooling that was worn. So, Remington submitted to the War department a number of cost cutting measure they wished to impliment, one of which was 2 groove barrels. It was found that the accuracy while not that of a target rifle, lasted longer and was a little cheaper to produce and was every bit as good as a standard 4 groove barrel. " British influenced reintroduction of 2-groove rifling in WWII , so won't be repeated here. Suffice to say, the Brits introduced it through their American contract with Savage Arms Co. late in 1941. As an alternative to their standard 5-groove barrel, it was calculated that using 2-groove instead "...can release 12 or more rifling machines to other uses", and at the same time not affect the ballistic properties of the rifle." The testing done by Remington, proved that after 16,000 yes SIXTEEN THOUSAND rounds, the accuracy was still there (tested at 100 and 200 yards).

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/two-groove

bearhunter said:
It will likely shoot as well as any 4-5-6 groove barrel.

Two groove barrels were used on No 4 rifles and some 1903 springfields. This was done to make production faster and likely cheaper.

As far as only Savage or Long Branch making them, I don't know. I do know that thousands of two groove barrels were sent to the UK for assembly during WWII. This actually shows how good the tolerances were back then. Get parts from off shore or from different jobbers and they fit well enough without much if any fitting.
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All Lee-Enfield barrels were made by the same process: drilled, reamed, polished and then rifled.

All of the actual rifling GROOVES were cut INTO the metal.

When you are looking at proper Enfield rifling, however, it does LOOK as if the Lands are raised above the grooves. They are not: the bore was finished first, then the grooves cut INTO it.

On a proper 5-groove Enfield barrel, the lands and grooves are equal width. Some 6-grooves were made with commercial-style rifling, right in the early part of the war. The 2-groove system, as pointed out earlier, was to speed production. The rifling CUTTER itself took out about .0005" of steel with every pass. For an Enfield barrel, that means 10 passes per groove, or 50 passes of the tool, adjusted bwtween sets of 5, to make a barrel. Going to the 2-groove system meant that barrels could be rifled 2-1/2 times as fast.

|My shooting coach many years ago was the late "Bisley Bill" Brown. He was a 6-time attender at the Commonwealth meet in Bisley, competed in the Pan-Am Games in Kingston (Jamaica), shot at Camp Perry and assorted other fun spots. In competition, he once tied the 1911 Ross Rifle record of a 74/75 at 1100 yards. He had a letter from the Queen on the wall of his study attesting to his success. Bill told me that a 2-groove barrel could keep up with a regular 5-groove tube, out to and including 600 yards. Mind you, he DID suggest that I get an SMLE with a Parker Ball-Burnished barrel, PH5 sights and the bedding tuned by Holland and Holland, if I were to go past the 600 mark.

Being that the Parker barrel cost $65 plus installation and the sights almost as much, plus shipping to and from England, plus the cost of the rifle........ and I was making 70 cents an hour in the bakery..... I stayed with my $10.66 Number 4 with the 2-groove barrel...... although I DID install a Mark 1 rear sight!
 
aletheuo said:
Two groove enfields are usually either savage or longbranch... Or so i thought. I'm sure an expert will come around to correct me shortly.
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British manufactured 2 groove barrels are found on Maltby and Fazakerly manufactured rifles.

I've never noted one on a BSA...but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Most alternate specification barrels were removed from during the British FTR program starting in 1945 and continuing into @1956.

As such there were few war-time condition british no4 rifles
Available until the last few years when a large number were released from (aparently) turkish stores.
 
The yanks also had two groove barrels put on M1917 / P17 rifles when they were rebuilt during the 2nd World War and just after period, they were made by Hi Standard and Johnson Automatics. Louthepou has one so rebuilt.
 
I've done quite a bit of shooting with No4 2 grove and M1903A3 2 groove barrels, all barrels being in similar condition, and can attest that there really isn't much to choose from between them and the higher groove barrels. The later M1903A4 Springfield sniper rifles were fitted with 2 groove barrels.
 
Enfield were rifled shallow. Like this ( ) vs this [ ]. Perfectly normal.
The .314" is more of an issue, but you can sometimes find cast bullets of that diameter. Steve at .303british.com used to make .314" jacketed bullets. Don't know if he still does.
The 2 groove barrel makes no difference to accuracy. Find the right diameter bullet and you'll be fine.
Remington re-designed the 1903 to create the 1903A3 only to reduce cost and manufacturing time. It had nothing to do with the tooling.
 
The groove diameters may be .314 but what is the diameter of the bore????

I just checked my rifle, it is a proven 2 moa shooter in the right hands and eyes, with off the shelf ammo. Winchester Gray Box with .311 dia bullets.

The groove diameter is .314 as well and the bore diameter is .3095.

This may just be a constant particular to two groove barrels. They only have two grooves to upset the exposed lead base and side walls into, rather than 4-5-6. It makes sense to increase the groove diameter to take up the extra material during upset.
 
I believe you will find that seeings Remington never produced 1903s before 1940, leased Rock Island's tooling which had been in storage for 19 years after producing over 430,000 "1903 Springfield". and that Remington was working on ways of simplifying the Remington 1903 as early as September of 1941. The alterations of the Remington 1903 that lead to the Remington Modified 1903 had to go before the Ordnance counsel for approval, the first of which was accepted in December of 1941. The considerations of the simplification of manufacturing of the 1903 had to do with cost cutting and speeding up production times, but also with the consideration that as the tooling wore out and needed replacing, less complicated tooling processes further reduced the cost of rifle costs and the cost of making new tooling as older tooling wore out.

sunray said:
Enfield were rifled shallow. Like this ( ) vs this [ ]. Perfectly normal.
The .314" is more of an issue, but you can sometimes find cast bullets of that diameter. Steve at .303british.com used to make .314" jacketed bullets. Don't know if he still does.
The 2 groove barrel makes no difference to accuracy. Find the right diameter bullet and you'll be fine.
Remington re-designed the 1903 to create the 1903A3 only to reduce cost and manufacturing time. It had nothing to do with the tooling.
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I'm shooting LB Mk4 with 2 groove barrel with casts.

It hates anything lighter than 200Gr lead pill and for some reason likes Green Dot powder over Red Dot/Promo,2400 or Trail Boss.

Just an observation...
 
Ok so now this thing is getting STRANGER by the day. I slugged it again to find the bore diameter(thanks for the reminder BearHunter). so the 2 groove's are .314 so far so good. The bore on the other hand miked in at .304 !! THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT so slugged it twice more. YUP, groove's at .314 and bore is .304. Must be doing something wrong. So I was thinking, if the bore is .311 and the groove's are cut into it, than a .308 bullet should go thu with little effort(.003 clearance). Grabbed a 30 cal 110gr RN and dropped it into the muzzle. About half way up the jacket and it goes solid. Firm pressure with finger's and gave it a turn to put a scratch mark from the crown onto the copper jacket. Scratch mark is .304. VERY STRANGE. So dropped it into the breech to see how far down it would go, thinking that the crown only could be tight. with my bore light I was unable to see the point of transition where the casing would end and the bore starts.

Could this thing have an actual 30 cal bore ??? Now I am leary of shooting it at all.

Ken
 
Skylark 4 said:
Ok so now this thing is getting STRANGER by the day. I slugged it again to find the bore diameter(thanks for the reminder BearHunter). so the 2 groove's are .314 so far so good. The bore on the other hand miked in at .304 !! THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT so slugged it twice more. YUP, groove's at .314 and bore is .304. Must be doing something wrong. So I was thinking, if the bore is .311 and the groove's are cut into it, than a .308 bullet should go thu with little effort(.003 clearance). Grabbed a 30 cal 110gr RN and dropped it into the muzzle. About half way up the jacket and it goes solid. Firm pressure with finger's and gave it a turn to put a scratch mark from the crown onto the copper jacket. Scratch mark is .304. VERY STRANGE. So dropped it into the breech to see how far down it would go, thinking that the crown only could be tight. with my bore light I was unable to see the point of transition where the casing would end and the bore starts.

Could this thing have an actual 30 cal bore ??? Now I am leary of shooting it at all.

Ken
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OK, I didn't mention this before because many here don't like or believe it. Many millions of .308 diameter bullets were loaded into 303 British cases, using boxer primers and Ball C (BLC) powder during WWII. I have both US and Canadian made ammunition that is loaded in this manner.

I can only assume they tested this ammo and that it met accuracy standards, somewhat.

My two groove rifled No4, of Long Branch manufacture in 1943, which is a rather common year, shoots .308 diameter bullets extremely well. It also shoots .311, .312 and .314 bullets I have on hand. Dominion used to load ammo and made components available from .310 -.315 diameter for many years. All of that ended when they sold most of their manufacturing equipment to a dealer in the US, where it has either been destroyed or is languishing in a dusty warehouse.

I know of at least a half dozen other 2 groove rifles that shoot .308 bullets very well and .310-.312 bullets just as well.

Many here, pull their hair out at the thought of bullets that are a few thou over diameter. In reality, when common sense is used, rather than emotional hysteria, the pressure increases are minimal when the rounds are loaded to sensible pressures and not over maximum listed pressures in most manuals. Even then, it may not be a big deal. Yes, pressures might rise, a bit. When there are real issues with it though it's likely some nimrod is using the wrong powder or increasing charges way beyond what they should be using. I just met a young hunter today that assured me "If you increase any powder charge by 10%, you will increase velocities by 10%" He had 50 rounds of 30-06 that he dropped over to show me. They were loaded with 180 grain bullets and a powder that was on the fast side for them, with magnum primers.
the thing is, he theorized that everything worked incrementally so he took this powder that was given to him by his uncle and increased the powder charge to the point it was slightly crushed. OK thing is, the load weighed 10% more than the max charge listed in his Hornady 5th edition manual. The loads in that manual are hot to say the least.

I gave him a bit of an education and showed him a newer manual. We spent the next hour pulling all of the bullets and dumping the powder into a container. Then we spent another hour reweighing the charges, setting up seating depth to fit his chamber/leade. It may not have kaboomed, this time.

Anyway back to Skylark4. When you decide to handload for that rifle, you will likely find that any bullet from .308 to .312 will shoot very well. Keep your loads within safe limits listed in modern manuals and have fun. You may have just discovered what a few people already know, those two groove barrels are usually real gems, as long as bubba hasn't buggered the bedding or lost the spacer on the king screw.
 
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It seems to me that I recall reading that the 4 and 5 groove barrels ranged from .310-.314 and that the 2 groove barrels were cut deeper, ranging .316-.318, to allow room for the swagged material.
 
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