Twer it me, I would go a different way... you say that you are not really a magnum fan... buy a .280 and AI it... then look for a 6.5mm down the road; .260 Rem, 6.5X55, 6.5 CM etc... I agree that your arsenal has holes in the 6.5mm and 7mm area.
264wm vrs 7mm rem mag
- Thread starter brybenn
- Start date
I really miss H 870 as well, put a lot of that through my first 264 staring back in the 1960s and back then it was all I used in it...
I used it with my 7mm RM too. It was excellent with 160gr and 175gr Partitions, but you would just about need a drop tube to get enough powder in your case! I've shot dozens of head of game with the 7mm RM - from Sitka deer to moose. Stuff just seems to die when hit with a 175gr Nosler Partition. Heck, I even shot a racoon with it. I only needed one shot.
I guess the animals must have read the articles written by the magazine writer beretta boy mentioned.
On a more serious note - I wonder how RL-33 will do with the .264 WM. I suspect it would be a good.
Ok here we go
-264 versus 270win. Well if a 270win can push a 140gr bullet to 3240fps, then I guess there the same
7mm can stabilize heavier bullets.
-.264(6.5mm) has a higher BC and SD than 7mm.
ANY over bore magnum if you fire consecutive shots is hard on throats.
Watch out for old data, lots of new powders with burn rates right in the 264 wheel house out there. John Barness did a great article.
Fantastic 3200 fps with a 140. Show me the data I have a .300 win I'd like to re'barrel.
3050 is what Winchester used to claim and none of my manuals get much past 3100fps.
Barsness also did a great piece on a long barreled .270.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
From my old Speer Manual, p.178 .... "max" loads (back in the day) Model 70 Winchester rifle, 26" Barrel, 1-9 twist Speer 140gr. Spitzers
5010 - 76.0gr. 3,303fps / H870 - *76.0gr. 3,293fps / H570 - 75.0gr. 3,313fps / H4831 - 64.0gr. 3,267fps / H450 - *62.0gr. 3,245 fps
* denotes CCI 250 Magnum primer, otherwise CCI 200
Note in text, p.176: "Winchester advertises their 100 grain bullet at 3,700 fps and the 140 grain at 3,250 fps. These velocities are in 26" barrels. Muzzle
velocities in 22" barrels are about 200 fps slower."
.... Not what we see today !!!
5010 - 76.0gr. 3,303fps / H870 - *76.0gr. 3,293fps / H570 - 75.0gr. 3,313fps / H4831 - 64.0gr. 3,267fps / H450 - *62.0gr. 3,245 fps
* denotes CCI 250 Magnum primer, otherwise CCI 200
Note in text, p.176: "Winchester advertises their 100 grain bullet at 3,700 fps and the 140 grain at 3,250 fps. These velocities are in 26" barrels. Muzzle
velocities in 22" barrels are about 200 fps slower."
.... Not what we see today !!!
Yep BB, I got the same manual and those are exactly the loads I was speaking of earlier, I was using H870 out of a 24" barrel and clocking 3224 with mine and CCI 250s. Actually I think that was on the 26 Nosler thread, I got called an bragging hotrodder.....AGAIN.....but was only using data right from the manuals I have and quoting Winchester's original specs.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
L I A B I L I T Y or " CYA " if you prefer !
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Data from the various bullet & powder Manuals ( old or new ) or the Internet should be regarded as a Guideline only.
Data is based on their testing under optimum conditions with either an inventoried factory rifle or a Universal Receiver and SAAMI minimum chamber
test barrel. Barrel lengths, powder lots, primers, brass and the characteristics of different manufacturer's bullets all differ. In several manuals there is
a discussion of why ballistics often vary from one source to the next.
Individual component changes can give sometimes widely varying results.
A few individuals have mentioned that they can not achieve Nosler data results when using Barnes bullets for example.
Others find a particular brand of brass or primer to give different results.
Start at a safe level and work cautiously up ... your particular rifle may not digest loads others find to be no problem.
Bolts that are hard to open, blown primers and ejector marks are all signs of pressure, but without proper pressure testing equipment,
we can only guess at what actual pressures are ... data, chronographs, excessive pressure indications and others results being a
"guide" to achieve satisfactory results.
Data is based on their testing under optimum conditions with either an inventoried factory rifle or a Universal Receiver and SAAMI minimum chamber
test barrel. Barrel lengths, powder lots, primers, brass and the characteristics of different manufacturer's bullets all differ. In several manuals there is
a discussion of why ballistics often vary from one source to the next.
Individual component changes can give sometimes widely varying results.
A few individuals have mentioned that they can not achieve Nosler data results when using Barnes bullets for example.
Others find a particular brand of brass or primer to give different results.
Start at a safe level and work cautiously up ... your particular rifle may not digest loads others find to be no problem.
Bolts that are hard to open, blown primers and ejector marks are all signs of pressure, but without proper pressure testing equipment,
we can only guess at what actual pressures are ... data, chronographs, excessive pressure indications and others results being a
"guide" to achieve satisfactory results.
Because back then, pressure measuring equipment was costly and few companies had access to them. SO they relied on pressure guessing techniques such as case head expansion and "making sure the primer pockets will stay tight for X amount of loads"
Once equipment that actually gives you accurate pressure measurements became common, some loads were reduced, some were increased, but most stayed about the same.
It's also why many wildcats were touted as having incredible velocities, but once they became legitimized and were tested, the velocities dropped, as the wildcat originators were almost always loading them incredibly hot.
Well, since the 270 has been brought up, and apparently the magnums need 26" barrels to get best performance, guess I will have to get my 26" 270 Win out and take it to the range for a checkup. IIRC, 130 ge bullets were a tad over 3300 fps, and 150s well over 3000.
Shooting both loads into the same target at 200 meters produces three inch groups, so makes chosing a huntin' load pretty easy.
Ted
Shooting both loads into the same target at 200 meters produces three inch groups, so makes chosing a huntin' load pretty easy.
Ted
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Well, since the 270 has been brought up, and apparently the magnums need 26" barrels to get best performance, guess I will have to get my 26" 270 Win out and take it to the range for a checkup. IIRC, 130 ge bullets were a tad over 3300 fps, and 150s well over 3000.
Shooting both loads into the same target at 200 meters produces three inch groups, so makes chosing a huntin' load pretty easy.
Ted
Ted, you're so.... vanilla.
I'd like to know too - I've been looking for it in Canada for more than two years to no avail.
I suggest that Re33 will be optimum for bullets lighter than 140 grs. Something with a burn rate much slower and denser would be better for 140 gr and heavier, like a ball form of Re50 (or just US869 which is slower yet and very dense).
Or H870 - I still have about two pounds left. If there ever was a powder to bring back, that's it. US869 is a nice try (as dense, but slower), but it hasn't quite come up to H870 accuracy-wise. If only....
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
I'll beg to differ ...
Winchester introduced the 264 WM along with the 338 WM in 1958. They assuredly had to submit to SAAMI's oversight at the time. I can't for a minute believe Speer, Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Hodgdon, Hercules (Alliant) and Dupont IMR didn't have the latest in test equipment. ( Copper crusher technology had been around since the virtual advent of smokeless powder and piezo electric
pressure measurement was in place at the Springfield [and no doubt Frankford] Armory as early as 1921. Isn't that the spots characters like Askins, Ackley, Keith, Whelen & Howe etc.
used to play when not engaged in army work ???
SAAMI as I'm sure you know was requested (back in the '20's) by the US Federal Government to provide uniform technical standards among the US arms and ammunition manufacturers. It's constituent committees were and are made up of direct representatives of the US firearms, ammunition and component manufacturers. Besides their "Technical" Committee, which oversees the standards for cartridge dimensions and commercial ammunition velocity & pressure levels ... their "Legal & Legislative Committee" has had an ever increasing influence, commensurate with the propensity for litigation within the US legal system ... vis-a-vis, specifically that directed towards the firearms & ammunition manufacturers.
NO matter the gun, the cartridge, or how strong the materials, there is no SAAMI cartridge pressure above 65,000 psi ( MAP - 66,000 psi MPLM or 69,100 MPSM ) seems like a magic
"Glass Ceiling" ... and I'd bet it's not based on anything technical.
You might be interested in this little bit of trivia too ... SAAMI's limits set for the 375 Ruger in 270 gr. and 300 gr. velocity loadings, are fractionally lower than those for the upper limits of the 375 H&H with identical bullet weights by 10 and 20 fps respectively. Both at the identical upper pressure levels. Just seems there are no commercial loads for the upper-end of the 375 H&H (maybe because of all the oldies out there since 1912) The only advantage I can see to "The New King" is "Short with no Belt" ... same as a Wizzum !!!
Andy - one of the downsides of H870 is that it is pretty hard on barrels. Yes, yes, barrels are made every day, I know. Using the above noted H870 data the barrel life calculator from 6mmBR gives an expected barrel life of 642 rounds. With the load I was using with my 7mm RM (H870 + 160gr Partition) it gives an estimate of 757 rounds.
I have some quickload data I nicked off a different site when I was researching RL33 for my 7mm RM. Out of a 26" barrel the data for the .264 WM with a 140gr Berger VLD, 3.34" OAL is:
RL 33 100.7% fill 3269fps 64500 PSI ? I don't know the powder heat potential of this powder
H870 107.1%fill 3259fps 64,500 PSI 619 rounds
Ramshot Magnum 92.5% 3211fps 64,500 PSI 764 rounds
H1000 101.8% 3195fps 64,500 PSI 951 rounds
My only point here is that there seem to be other powders that give similar performance with the benefit of longer barrel life too. So, as long as you have the accuracy, there are other good choices out there.
I have some quickload data I nicked off a different site when I was researching RL33 for my 7mm RM. Out of a 26" barrel the data for the .264 WM with a 140gr Berger VLD, 3.34" OAL is:
RL 33 100.7% fill 3269fps 64500 PSI ? I don't know the powder heat potential of this powder
H870 107.1%fill 3259fps 64,500 PSI 619 rounds
Ramshot Magnum 92.5% 3211fps 64,500 PSI 764 rounds
H1000 101.8% 3195fps 64,500 PSI 951 rounds
My only point here is that there seem to be other powders that give similar performance with the benefit of longer barrel life too. So, as long as you have the accuracy, there are other good choices out there.
Simplicity is elegant.
As a bowhunting/single shot aficionado... would that make me elegant???
BUT before you answer that... I can tell you this would be the first time that I will have been described as "elegant," particularly by a dude... even moreso, an old"ish," "backwoodsy" sorta dude...
You may not believe it, but several years ago John Barsnes decided to find out why some (not all) data was reduced and some was increased. Turns out most (not all) of the people writing reloading manuals for the bullet and powder companies didn't have access to pressure testing equipment. Gun writers of the time (and still today) working independently certainly published loads in magazines without pressure testing them.
SAAMI deals with averages, which is probably how they come to their 65 000 PSI rating. The 65000 PSI rating has a built in safety margin. It would make no sense to list 65000 PSI as max and be at gun exploding pressures at 66 000 PSI
Lots of interesting stuff on the SAAMI charts:
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf
Reading the chart, it Seems that there is not much point in going to a 375 RUM as it only beats the H&H by 70 fps, with higher pressure! Hmmmm
Anyway, looking at older manuals, some have changed data due to pressure testing equipment, some powders and bullets have changed, and I'm sure that lawyers might get involved when they are told "Well, we had no pressure testing gear, but now we do, and it turns out that some of these loads were running 10 000-15 000 PSI over the max that we all agreed was proper"
