Importance of rapid second shot in hunting situations
- Thread starter buckchaser
- Start date
I don't really get this argument. In many ways, a bolt gun can be as complex or more complex than a semi-auto.
I am always ready for a follow up if needed due mostly to the fact that I want the kill to be as humane as possible. The price of a second shot is out weighed by the thought of causing any undue suffering to any animal that I hunt. Just my two cents worth.
Like everyone here I agree that the first shot is the most important and the goal every time is to drop an animal with one shot. But in the real world there are variables that sometimes prevent that. What's more important than action type for that second shot is familiarity with your rifle. I've hunted with a semi auto, a bolt and a lever. I have short guns for brush and treed areas and long guns set up for distance, the important thing is to know your gun so that if you actually do need that second shot it will count.
Mount Sweetness
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Ontario
I will never again use a bolt action for deer in Northern Ontario. The second shot often comes in handy, and I don't care who you are, a bolt action is not the quickest option. Pump, lever or semi
In the case of a high powered big game rifle, you can cycle the bolt about as fast as you can recover from the recoil, and get back on target. I have placed two, and even three rounds into an elk or moose in rapid succession , and I have made a few doubles on coyotes with a bolt action.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Yup, never discount what a dedicated shooter can do with a good bolt gun.
- Location
- Prince Albert, Sk
Ok, so first shot one goes into an animal.
The second shot goes into another animal.
Now, was the second first shot supposed to be the follow up shot to the first shot or is a third shot to be the second shot to the first shot and the fourth shot the follow up shot to the second shot?
An interesting opinion could be developed when harvesting multiple animals at a time.
The second shot goes into another animal.
Now, was the second first shot supposed to be the follow up shot to the first shot or is a third shot to be the second shot to the first shot and the fourth shot the follow up shot to the second shot?
An interesting opinion could be developed when harvesting multiple animals at a time.
https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/FIBEwY4_Yqc
http://youtu.be/trDkxN4sJqY?t=1m6s
Advantage in rate of fire of semi auto is beyond any doubt. However, you can see that reloading is just a small fraction of the time needed to make a shot on a game. You main time is spend on assessing if the follow up shot is needed and where the target moves now at what speed. You can do that as you work the bolt, semi auto is instantly reloaded and ready, but the shooter is not.
Semi? ... Makes me remember a time long ago .. I was 16 yrs old and my dad and I were closely stalking a big buck.
Another hunter was on top of the adjoining hill - he saw the buck and not us.
He let loose with 5 .308 rounds from his Winchester M100 semi-auto .. 5 shots in less than 10 seconds.
Not one of his shots touched the buck (which got away), but two rounds came so close to us that we dove into snow banks.
After I calmed down, we went and talked to him and he was still almost beside himself with excitement.
Another hunter was on top of the adjoining hill - he saw the buck and not us.
He let loose with 5 .308 rounds from his Winchester M100 semi-auto .. 5 shots in less than 10 seconds.
Not one of his shots touched the buck (which got away), but two rounds came so close to us that we dove into snow banks.
After I calmed down, we went and talked to him and he was still almost beside himself with excitement.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
In full hunting centerfire rounds, ie. not blowback pistol cal carbines, no not really. A bolt action shares the lock up and mechanics of striking a primer with a semi auto, but will not require a gas system or other method of unlocking and cycling the action automatically. That is a huge difference and a substantial piece of engineering, and also why bolt actions long predated semi auto centerfires in general usage; they are simpler. They do not make one a better or worse hunter though, a sentiment I agree with.
pisces-guy
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- West Kelowna, B.C.
A lot of hunters that buy semi autos are only doing so because they don't want to spend any time at the range practicing...
I was more thinking along the lines of mechanical and engineering complexity. By comparison a precision machined Mauser looks much more complicated than a mass produced military style auto loader like the M14.
Porkchopsandwhich
CGN Regular
The ability of being able to make a quick follow up shot can be the difference between a dead or a wounded animal getting away to die later. Which is more ethical?
Most hunters use some form of modern repeating firearm, lever, bolt, pump or semi i personally have never seen anyone hunt with a single shot for big game.
Whatever type of action you use other then a single shot all allow for follow up shots some faster then others.
A mechanical or gas operated semi auto by nature of of the action has less perceived recoil then all other types of actions this allows for faster sight picture re acquisition and faster follow up shot(s).
Now is there a trade off in accuracy? Sure somewhat but that's subjective to the rifle in question, A new production BAR will more then likely out shoot a shot out .303 sporter any day and a super-duper spiral fluted carbotanium heavy barreled bolt gun will out shoot it all things being equal and so on and so on.
In an idea ethical hunting situation you'd be shooting from a rest with a heavy barreled magnum calibered rifle, with $100 a box bullets looking through a scope that cost twice as much as the rifle and only at the broad side vitals and only bucks cause who shoots doe's. For how many of you does this describe your yearly hunt?
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The very odd time a follow up shot is needed, it mostly depends on the experience of the hunter.
I've run across guys that just keep on pumping bullets into a walking dead animal on more than one occasion. This usually results in a lot of meat loss and one hell of a mess during field dressing. It isn't at all unusual for an animal to walk/run 25-100 meters with its heart shot out or both lungs shot through. There are only two bullet placements that will drop an animal in its tracks, reliably, to stay down. One, is the brain shot and the other is a spine shot, that either takes out the spinal cord or cuts the two main arteries just under the spine.
The latter is my shot of choice and the lung shot is second. I try to avoid head shots as much as possible. Animals move constantly and the brain is a very small target. I might consider it if the animal is very close and if it's the most reliable option. It hardly ever is.
There is an old saying, Hear one shot = meat in the pot. Hear two shots = maybe meat in the pot. Hear three shots = desperation and open a can of beans for dinner.
Some people really have difficulty operating a bolt action rifle efficiently. Maybe a mental block, lack of coordination??? Those same people have problems operating a pump action or even lever action. That's just the way it is. I prefer a semi auto shotgun over a pump. I have no problems with a bolt action or SxS shotgun either. With a pump though, I fumble.
Once in a while, a second shot is necessary. When it is, the proper firearm, that you are familiar with is a must. There is usually very little time for that second shot and getting on target can be a nightmare. It does happen though and more often than not, it means a lot of tracking to dispatch a wounded animal.
If everything comes together, a second shot shouldn't be needed. When fate steps in and it is, you need to be up to the task, with the firearm at hand.
I see the odd person carrying a Ruger #1 or a Browning 78. The ones I've queried about how well they handle a follow up shot will usually try to cover up and say it's never been needed. Old Betsy is a killer, first time every time.
Balderdash says I. That just means the person doesn't get much game or on the other hand it means they are careful, conscientious hunters who only shoot when they know their is very little to no chance of a poorly placed shot. That is usually acquired by experience. It happens to everyone, what is important is how you handle the situation after.
Knowing your firearm well enough to cover such a situation is a good place to start.
Sometimes I still get an adrenaline shake. When this happens, I have matured to the point where I just hold off shooting until it subsides. Often this means the loss of an animal but at least it isn't wounded and walking/running away. Moose and Deer will find a place to lie down when they are badly hit. An Elk will get out of country as fast as it can run. Bears will hole up and are darn hard to find in close cover, unless there is a good blood trail.
Sometimes discretion is the best option. Especially at longer ranges. Hitting a moving animal at 50 meters is usually not to hard, depending on terrain. Hitting a moving animal, 400 meters away, on the far side of a clear cut or alfalfa field is a whole different matter.
I've run across guys that just keep on pumping bullets into a walking dead animal on more than one occasion. This usually results in a lot of meat loss and one hell of a mess during field dressing. It isn't at all unusual for an animal to walk/run 25-100 meters with its heart shot out or both lungs shot through. There are only two bullet placements that will drop an animal in its tracks, reliably, to stay down. One, is the brain shot and the other is a spine shot, that either takes out the spinal cord or cuts the two main arteries just under the spine.
The latter is my shot of choice and the lung shot is second. I try to avoid head shots as much as possible. Animals move constantly and the brain is a very small target. I might consider it if the animal is very close and if it's the most reliable option. It hardly ever is.
There is an old saying, Hear one shot = meat in the pot. Hear two shots = maybe meat in the pot. Hear three shots = desperation and open a can of beans for dinner.
Some people really have difficulty operating a bolt action rifle efficiently. Maybe a mental block, lack of coordination??? Those same people have problems operating a pump action or even lever action. That's just the way it is. I prefer a semi auto shotgun over a pump. I have no problems with a bolt action or SxS shotgun either. With a pump though, I fumble.
Once in a while, a second shot is necessary. When it is, the proper firearm, that you are familiar with is a must. There is usually very little time for that second shot and getting on target can be a nightmare. It does happen though and more often than not, it means a lot of tracking to dispatch a wounded animal.
If everything comes together, a second shot shouldn't be needed. When fate steps in and it is, you need to be up to the task, with the firearm at hand.
I see the odd person carrying a Ruger #1 or a Browning 78. The ones I've queried about how well they handle a follow up shot will usually try to cover up and say it's never been needed. Old Betsy is a killer, first time every time.
Balderdash says I. That just means the person doesn't get much game or on the other hand it means they are careful, conscientious hunters who only shoot when they know their is very little to no chance of a poorly placed shot. That is usually acquired by experience. It happens to everyone, what is important is how you handle the situation after.
Knowing your firearm well enough to cover such a situation is a good place to start.
Sometimes I still get an adrenaline shake. When this happens, I have matured to the point where I just hold off shooting until it subsides. Often this means the loss of an animal but at least it isn't wounded and walking/running away. Moose and Deer will find a place to lie down when they are badly hit. An Elk will get out of country as fast as it can run. Bears will hole up and are darn hard to find in close cover, unless there is a good blood trail.
Sometimes discretion is the best option. Especially at longer ranges. Hitting a moving animal at 50 meters is usually not to hard, depending on terrain. Hitting a moving animal, 400 meters away, on the far side of a clear cut or alfalfa field is a whole different matter.
Lots of people hunt with single shot rifles. They are quite popular but also, expensive and cranky shooters. Black Powder Muzzle Loader hunters all use single shot rifles, other than the very odd side by side or over under. For the most part, they are well practiced on follow up shots and as often as not, their shots are fairly close. That being said, some of the shots made with the modern inline muzzle loaders are quite impressive.
Back in the day when my eyesight was better, I took a Martini Enfield, chambered in 303 British to some local DCRA shoots. I went into most of the matches and through the drills and didn't feel the least bit undergunned. No, I didn't win the shoots but I didn't place last either. I was shooting against No4 MkI rifles for the most part and the odd Ross. The shoots were set up for the 303 cartridge shooters specifically. Even in the timed shooting events, I never had any issues getting off all ten rounds and getting them on target. Same goes for the pop up targets, held on the end of a pole, in the butts.
There is an old technique that was taught back when those rifles were the backbone of the infantry. You held four cartridges between the fingers and thumb of the off hand. When you eject the fired round, you reach a few inches forward and grab one of the rounds and load so you can continue firing. Your off hand doesn't change position and your sight picture is stable. The shooter of a SS in such an event, also keeps extra cartridges in a pouch or in a loop bandolier in three round groups. This way, when you need ammo, you aren't trying to fumble around with one cartridge at a time and wasting time so you can't get enough rounds on target. This type of training was normal when cartridge loading single shot rifles were the main battle rifles. It was also carried even further by the Brits and colonies right up to 1915. Their 303 Lee Metfords and later SMLEs were equipped with a magazine cut off plate to conserve ammo and basically turn the rifles into single shot weapons until they received orders to open the gate.
Porkchopsandwhich
CGN Regular
Like i said i personally haven't seen anyone hunt with a single shot not to say that people don't the majority of hunters hunt big game with a repeating firearm for example Cabelas only sells six different single shot rifles but sells 107 different bolt guns
http://www.cabelas.ca/category/single-shot/1129
http://www.cabelas.ca/category/bolt-action/1130
I am not a black powder hunter (i'd love to try it just never seem to be able to) and i am aware they are pretty much all single shot, but to compare the reload on a black powder even a modern breach loader with any repeater inst really realistic i don't think anyone would consider several (1-20 seconds)? to be a fast follow up shot and the shots are made fairly close and with a .50cal? round. I left out black powder as the Op's question seemed to related to center fire rifle hunting.
10 rounds rapid! Do they allow semi autos to go up against bolt guns in DCRA shoots?
Porkchopsandwhich
CGN Regular
Shot placement is key indeed, sometimes you can feel the shot and know if you hit right or not and if you need to shoot again. and sometimes you can't
I've seen it twice where an animal was hit in the head or antler and got up an ran away no blood only fur where it fell head shots are risky
Training, familiarity, size and fit of the firearm (L.O.P, cheek weld, eye relief) and preference, add cold hands, gloves and a heavy coat into the mix I wonder why anyone would chose a firearm with any more then two controls on it (charging handle and a safety)
In my mind that would be a Semi auto.
Agreed, or it could be they hunt the same Terran every year and make the same shots from known distances. or they could just leave the wounded ones to the coyotes
This is your sympathetic nervous system response symptoms are:
Acceleration of heart and lung action this one is pretty self explanatory
Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
General effect on the sphincters of the body
Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
Liberation of metabolic energy sources (particularly fat and glycogen) for muscular action
Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
Relaxation of bladder
Inhibition of erection
Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing) your ears ever hurt after shooting during hunting?
Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
Shaking before/after or during the shot
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