Commercial and Military .455 Webley MkIII's, who has one or seen one before?

[mkrnel]

Reluctantly decided to put my super nice and rare Webley Commercial (non military) Mk.III, that's right a Mark 3 Webley! up for sale. This one was setup for .45ACP in the past unfortunately.

Well now it is sold, so I have some questions! are these commercial Mk.III's very hard to find?, who else has one or has seen one? especially smokeless proofed in the Antique Status low serial number range, apparently they made them from 1897 up to 1914. I guess I should have asked these questions before I sold it, but after talking with the numerous potential and the final buyer, some of these questions came up and now they also have me interested in the answers.

My one had the confirmed antique, pre-amalgamation Webley & Son barrel address. In 1897 Webley amalgamated with W & C Scott and Sons to become The Webley and Scott Revolver and Arms Company Ltd of Birmingham. My research tells me that these are the lowest production number produced of all the Marks I through VI.

Here are some pictures to give people a chance to see one in detail -

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[infidel29]

trying to find any antique webley in original 455 is hard to do, since so many were converted. I imagine theres probably at least a thousand or two mk III's that were made prior to the cutoff still out there though. I dont have my webley book in front of me to tell me exact serial numbers. how many in 455 i dunno

 

[mooncoon]

In a sense you do not need a serial number to prove the antiquity of the gun above. If you look at one of the closeups on the left side of the frame, you will see a winged mini ball (hollow base) which is a pre 1898 trademark of Webley & Sons. Guns stamped W&S and a winged solid base bullet stand for Webley and Scott rather than Webley and Sons and you would have to use a serial number for them

cheers mooncoon

 

[Shooting Centre]

In a sense you do not need a serial number to prove the antiquity of the gun above. If you look at one of the closeups on the left side of the frame, you will see a winged mini ball (hollow base) which is a pre 1898 trademark of Webley & Sons. Guns stamped W&S and a winged solid base bullet stand for Webley and Scott rather than Webley and Sons and you would have to use a serial number for them

cheers mooncoon

I have in front of me a Webley Mk IV with exactly that stamp on it. Top strap is marked W. Richards. Unless the barrel was replaced at some time there is no way it could be pre 1898.

 

[bearhunter]

In a sense you do not need a serial number to prove the antiquity of the gun above. If you look at one of the closeups on the left side of the frame, you will see a winged mini ball (hollow base) which is a pre 1898 trademark of Webley & Sons. Guns stamped W&S and a winged solid base bullet stand for Webley and Scott rather than Webley and Sons and you would have to use a serial number for them

cheers mooncoon

I have a MkIII Webley that I picked up from a good friend a few years ago. It is in 85% condition on the outside and as new inside.

I had a hell of a time getting the pistol declared an antique. It is identical to the pistol the OP posted pics of and in 455/476 chambering.

The main difference is the nickel plated exterior and the markings on top of the barrel, "Army & Navy Collective Society"

British officers had to purchase their own pistols in those days. Many of them did so through the Army & Navy Collective Society.

Those records are a treasure trove and are located in the USA, under the protective wings of Joel Black. He most graciously looked into his records and found a pistol numbered ten numbers higher than mine. Sold by the A&NCS in 1896.

The CFC wasn't willing to accept the winged hollowbase bullet as proof of date of manufacture.

Joel sent me some pics of the MKIII serial numbers in his old A&NCS ledgers which I forwarded to the CFC. They wanted more. Just stalling for the most part but in a polite manner. I guess they needed to put together a committee on overtime to assess the information.

John Hipwell from Wolverine graciously stepped in and helped me out. The people at the CFC have a lot of respect for John and rightfully so. It took close to a year but the antique declaration was finally sent.

 

[mkrnel]

I have a MkIII Webley that I picked up from a good friend a few years ago. It is in 85% condition on the outside and as new inside.

I had a hell of a time getting the pistol declared an antique. It is identical to the pistol the OP posted pics of and in 455/476 chambering.

The main difference is the nickel plated exterior and the markings on top of the barrel, "Army & Navy Collective Society"

British officers had to purchase their own pistols in those days. Many of them did so through the Army & Navy Collective Society.

Those records are a treasure trove and are located in the USA, under the protective wings of Joel Black. He most graciously looked into his records and found a pistol numbered ten numbers higher than mine. Sold by the A&NCS in 1896.

The CFC wasn't willing to accept the winged hollowbase bullet as proof of date of manufacture.

Joel sent me some pics of the MKIII serial numbers in his old A&NCS ledgers which I forwarded to the CFC. They wanted more. Just stalling for the most part but in a polite manner. I guess they needed to put together a committee on overtime to assess the information.

John Hipwell from Wolverine graciously stepped in and helped me out. The people at the CFC have a lot of respect for John and rightfully so. It took close to a year but the antique declaration was finally sent.

Apparently they (RCMP) are far more gracious with these antique MkIII's now days and they will accept all Mk.III's up too at least serial number 5000 and I was just told possibly higher.

How long ago was it that you had these issues?

 

[Southlander]

I was able to get a letter from the CFC around 8 years ago for a webley MKIII with a serial number around 4000. Then the cutoff was around 5000 because it was deduced that was what could have roughly been produced before 1898 and corresponded with the ones marked P Webley. IIRC the MKIII was introduced in late 1897 so there wasn't many produced before the cutoff

That is a nice MKIII

 

[bearhunter]

Southlander, the serial number on My MKIII is very slightly above 5000, which the CFC appears to use as a definitive cut off number.

I went through this procedure in July of 2011.

They weren't impolite but they weren't budging either.

Many MarkIII pistols had their receivers made before 1898 and were assembled many years later. This is where the confusion comes in. That and a definite lack of records.

The UofScotland has many of Webley's surviving records. Not all though. Many were lost during WWII and lack of care. For a small fee, they will research their records and if any documentation is available, will send it to you.

The people at the CFC, will go by bills of sale or trading records. They aren't unapproachable and they are polite. They just don't give any help, even if they know the answer. You are left to your own devices to search out the answers.

By the way, I was wrong about the date of sale. It was August of 1897. This means the receiver was likely made in 1896, rather than 1897.

Even the UK just lumps all of the MIII pistols into the antique category.

 

[mkrnel]

My one was a low serial number revolver, way under 2000.

 

[Southlander]

Bearhunter I found them as you describe as well. Funny thing is they once issued a letter on a commercial MKIV, they make no sense sometimes.