Collet dies or full sizing
- Thread starter Kevlak
- Start date
- Location
- West Quebec
I'd have both dies and use the collet after I shoot the first time if the brass is high quality or hard to get.
There has been endless debates about neck vs Full length resizing, I stopped using my Lee collet dies and full length resize every time. I see no difference in case life and I get better accuracy by full length resizing. When you full length resize the case is supported in the rear by the bolt face and by the bullet in the throat. The full length resized case does not touch the chamber along the body of the case or the neck. As long as you have reasonably normal case runout the case has very little effect with the bullet alignment in the bore. On the other hand a neck sized case is more affected by case alignment with the chamber. Bottom line if you do not have perfect brass with equal case wall and neck thickness then full length resizing produces better accuracy.
Below the full length resized case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and the bullet in the throat and the neck and body of the case do not touch the chamber walls. Meaning the case has minimal effect on bullet alignment with the bore.
Below Mr. Kevin Thomas worked for Sierra bullets before joining Team Lapua USA shooting team and knows what he is talking about.
Below the full length resized case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and the bullet in the throat and the neck and body of the case do not touch the chamber walls. Meaning the case has minimal effect on bullet alignment with the bore.
Below Mr. Kevin Thomas worked for Sierra bullets before joining Team Lapua USA shooting team and knows what he is talking about.
- Location
- Over the rainbow
BigEdp51, can you comment on or link to how to 'properly' do F/L sizing? I know you've talked before about pausing at the bottom of the stroke to let the brass settle into the new shape. Are there other secrets?
BigEdp51, can you comment on or link to how to 'properly' do F/L sizing? I know you've talked before about pausing at the bottom of the stroke to let the brass settle into the new shape. Are there other secrets?
Thanks for all the comment, I'll defiantly be doing some testing of my own with lighter charges to see how the brass hold up. But I would also be interested in the above comment as well!
Kevin
BigEdp51, can you comment on or link to how to 'properly' do F/L sizing? I know you've talked before about pausing at the bottom of the stroke to let the brass settle into the new shape. Are there other secrets?
Do not set the full length die as per the instructions meaning with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. Doing this pushes or bumps the shoulder back the maximum amount to insure the cartridge will fit in ANY chamber. Adjust the die to give minimum shoulder bump, meaning .001 to .002 for bolt actions and .003 to .004 for semi-autos, meaning a custom fit to your chamber.
Pausing at the top of the ram stroke keeps shoulder location more uniform when sizing due to brass springback meaning your telling the brass who is the boss and to stay put.
Put a rubber o-ring under the expander ball lock nut and just tighten with light finger pressure, this allows the expander button to be self centering and reduce runout.
I use Redding competition shell holders to control my shoulder bump, these shell holders let you adjust shoulder bump in .002 increments. Below +.004 shell holder is .004 taller than the standard RCBS shell holder on the right. You can make the same height adjustments by using feeler gauges and creating a gap between the die and shell holder.
- Location
- Over the rainbow
Succinct and useful. Thanks!
If the ammunition is going to be used in one rifle only, then neck sizing is all that is required. Collet dies work well for this type of sizing.
Regular full length size dies would require that you back the die out so that the neck is the only thing besides the base that is resized. You can see the sizing on the case easily enough.
If you are using an action that has questionable extraction issues then always full length resize. Bolt actions usually do not fall into this catagory.
Regular full length size dies would require that you back the die out so that the neck is the only thing besides the base that is resized. You can see the sizing on the case easily enough.
If you are using an action that has questionable extraction issues then always full length resize. Bolt actions usually do not fall into this catagory.
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
I can only speak from experiences with 2 calibers. I find FL resize on my 30.06 gives me better accuracy than NS. My 22-250, NS once fire formed seems better than FL, but not by much. I think it depends on your rifle. Try both and see what works better for you rifles.
If brass life is the quest, learn how to anneal your brass. Collet die, neck size die, FL die, it doesn't matter. All size the neck & result in cracks due to work hardening of the brass. Personally, I used collet dies for a while as they work the brass less, but I discovered they're not magic so I went back to FL sizing & anneal. Setting the die for minimum shoulder setback is important as mentioned.
No personal experience, but my dad puts a small mark on the rim of the case (prior to the first firing) so that he can insert the round in the same orientation every time. This accounts for oddities in the chamber. He only re-uses brass in a single rifle. He only neck sizes after the first firing, he mostly uses Ruger #1 falling block actions and rifles that are finely tuned. There may be better ways, but this what works for him.
I use Redding competition shell holders to control my shoulder bump, these shell holders let you adjust shoulder bump in .002 increments. Below +.004 shell holder is .004 taller than the standard RCBS shell holder on the right. You can make the same height adjustments by using feeler gauges and creating a gap between the die and shell holder.
The +.004 stamped shellholder is not taller, rather shallower (by +.004'") for less shoulder bump over a standard RCBS shellholder.
I NS all 5 of my rifles (2x 6mm, .243, 22-250 and .270), all are 1/4 MOA 5 shot groups at 200 yds and most at 300 yds. Do what works for your rifle - consistent results once you produce consistent reloaded rounds are more a function of the shooter than anything else, IMHO.
The standard deck height of the shell holder is .125, the +.004 deck height is .129 which makes it .004 taller from standard deck height. Meaning when you lower the deck height you are making the shell holder taller.
The Lee Collet die only neck sizes but doesn't bump the shoulder back - is that correct?
Based upon that assumption ....
If you are using the same rifle do you need to bump the shoulder every time? ( although some seem to feel you do?)
I assume you don't or the Lee collet die would not be useful? - correct
Based upon that assumption ....
If you are using the same rifle do you need to bump the shoulder every time? ( although some seem to feel you do?)
I assume you don't or the Lee collet die would not be useful? - correct
What endless debate? Neck sizing and FL sizing are two different things with two different purposes. No debate required.
In any case, you will have to FL resize sooner or later and neck sizing only applies to the cases fired out of the same bolt action.
This is what Lee says about their Collet die(along with the marketing BS. Funny how they include the useless scoop, calibrated in CC's that are not how powder is measured, and claim "...no loading system that will load more accurate ammunition...")
"...These dies size only the neck to preserve the perfect fit of fire forming. Only reload cases that have been fired in your gun. Not recommended for autoloaders, slide or lever action guns."
If you want to have your brass last as long as possible, you avoid hot loads(case life in entirely dependant on the load use), don't use Federal(it's softer than other brands) and learn how to anneal(one cracked neck/case mouth. Pitch that one and anneal the rest. Annealing isn't rocket science).
In any case, you will have to FL resize sooner or later and neck sizing only applies to the cases fired out of the same bolt action.
This is what Lee says about their Collet die(along with the marketing BS. Funny how they include the useless scoop, calibrated in CC's that are not how powder is measured, and claim "...no loading system that will load more accurate ammunition...")
"...These dies size only the neck to preserve the perfect fit of fire forming. Only reload cases that have been fired in your gun. Not recommended for autoloaders, slide or lever action guns."
If you want to have your brass last as long as possible, you avoid hot loads(case life in entirely dependant on the load use), don't use Federal(it's softer than other brands) and learn how to anneal(one cracked neck/case mouth. Pitch that one and anneal the rest. Annealing isn't rocket science).
Peter Laidler the Senior British Army Armourer in the The UK and author of the "The Armourers Perspective .303 No.4 (T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland & Holland Connection contacted me by email. He wanted to know "WHY" I always talked about tight headspace on the Enfield rifle and then proceeded to give me a polite earful on headspace and the Enfield rifle. Mr. Laidlers main point was simply this, the more clearance between the rear of the cartridge case and the bolt face the less bolt thrust is applied to the bolt. Meaning the cartridge case stretches and acts like a shock absorber and thus reduces the bolt thrust and the dwell time the force is applied to the bolt. In plain English this why the headspace increases on rifles over time and just one reason why military rifles have longer headspace settings.
I have necked sized only for practice ammunition "BUT" you MUST grease the rear of your locking lugs or the tight fitting case will cause wear and possibly gauld the locking lugs. Next, the neck sized case is in direct contact with the bolt face and delivers the total bolt thrust to the action. Bottom line, I neck size my .303 British cases BUT I do not load them hot, my hotter rounds have good shoulder bump that lessons the bolt thrust.
Neck sizing depends on the type shooting you will be doing meaning off the bench and the type rifle you will be shooting meaning WHAT TYPE METAL the rifle is made from and understanding what bolt thrust means. Now ask yourselves WHY the Enfield rifle had replaceable bolt heads and why the headspace would increase. Today modern firearms are made of very good steel and can take more pounding than the older milsurp rifles "BUT" they still don't like being abused. The Australians perfected the conversion of the No.1 Enfield rifle to 7.62 NATO with higher grade EN steel. When standard No.1 Enfield rifles were chambered to 7.62 without upgradeing the bolt and bolthead to EN grade steel the test rifles headspace increased to over maximum and the bolt heads cracked after very few rounds had been fired. So again what type rifle are you neck sizing for and how hot are your loads?
I full length resize the majority of my reloads because I'm not spending money on Lapua brass and the the brass I do use is not perfectly made and has defects in case wall thickness which effects case alignment and runout. By full length resizing you reduce the effects the case has of misalignment of the bullet with the bore. So the QUALITY of your brass and your chamber play a big part in your accuracy, so how many of you have custom made rifle with tight neck chambers and neck turn your brass. Meaning there are things competitive shooters use with expensive hand crafted rifles and things you do with off the shelf factory rifles and standard grade brass.
If you look at the photo below you will see the Hornady cartridge case concentricity gauge in the back left of the photo, this gauge lets me "bend" cases with excess neck runout. Meaning a high percentage of standard grade brass will have runout in excess of .003.
Neck sizing and full length resizing covers a lot of area and you have to know how to get the best mileage out of both methods and why you are doing it and its effects. And if you do not have gauges to check the quality of your case anything you say here is just guesswork and reading too many comments by so called online "experts".
In closing Saddam Hussein's cat preferred neck sizing also but that is just one opinion.................
I have necked sized only for practice ammunition "BUT" you MUST grease the rear of your locking lugs or the tight fitting case will cause wear and possibly gauld the locking lugs. Next, the neck sized case is in direct contact with the bolt face and delivers the total bolt thrust to the action. Bottom line, I neck size my .303 British cases BUT I do not load them hot, my hotter rounds have good shoulder bump that lessons the bolt thrust.
Neck sizing depends on the type shooting you will be doing meaning off the bench and the type rifle you will be shooting meaning WHAT TYPE METAL the rifle is made from and understanding what bolt thrust means. Now ask yourselves WHY the Enfield rifle had replaceable bolt heads and why the headspace would increase. Today modern firearms are made of very good steel and can take more pounding than the older milsurp rifles "BUT" they still don't like being abused. The Australians perfected the conversion of the No.1 Enfield rifle to 7.62 NATO with higher grade EN steel. When standard No.1 Enfield rifles were chambered to 7.62 without upgradeing the bolt and bolthead to EN grade steel the test rifles headspace increased to over maximum and the bolt heads cracked after very few rounds had been fired. So again what type rifle are you neck sizing for and how hot are your loads?
I full length resize the majority of my reloads because I'm not spending money on Lapua brass and the the brass I do use is not perfectly made and has defects in case wall thickness which effects case alignment and runout. By full length resizing you reduce the effects the case has of misalignment of the bullet with the bore. So the QUALITY of your brass and your chamber play a big part in your accuracy, so how many of you have custom made rifle with tight neck chambers and neck turn your brass. Meaning there are things competitive shooters use with expensive hand crafted rifles and things you do with off the shelf factory rifles and standard grade brass.
If you look at the photo below you will see the Hornady cartridge case concentricity gauge in the back left of the photo, this gauge lets me "bend" cases with excess neck runout. Meaning a high percentage of standard grade brass will have runout in excess of .003.
Neck sizing and full length resizing covers a lot of area and you have to know how to get the best mileage out of both methods and why you are doing it and its effects. And if you do not have gauges to check the quality of your case anything you say here is just guesswork and reading too many comments by so called online "experts".
In closing Saddam Hussein's cat preferred neck sizing also but that is just one opinion.................
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I will only state what I use for ALL my rifles. It works for me and if you wish to play along, it can work for you.
The premise with all of this is to keep runout to a min, center the case in the chamber and have that bullet pointed true and centered to the bore.
This part is for ANY rifle with a bore that is concentric, round and true with the bore... some aren't and these rifles need far more intense help.
Before doing any serious load work up, I just fireform the new cases. Keep any eye on pressure signs and where the possible accuracy nodes are.
The cases are then Cleaned, neck sized using a Lee collet die and all necessary case prep done. For match rifles, I will anneal the necks.
The cases get 2nd firing with proper load work up to identify the accurate load. From this point, my procedure is the same.
Clean, Anneal, redding body die to bump shoulder to ensure proper chambering, clean, lee collet neck die, outside neck turn and trim, add fuel and bullet
So here is the difference:
Body die bumps the shoulder and possibly squeeze the top of the case body a schnick. It should not touch the rest of the case body except if your cases really get big (ie poor action lock up and/or over pressured loads). Nice way to monitor you do not have a mechanical issue or that you may be using up your nine lives.
This maintains the fireformed dimensions for the lower portion of the case which CENTERS the case in the chamber - all cases have some taper in the body and it is that taper which centers the case. The front of the case (the 'top' part of the shoulder and neck) should be clear of the chamber walls to allow for expansion during firing for proper bullet release.
Assume you have not create any runout in the sizing and seating steps (with proper dies you will not), the bullet is now centered with the bore and positive results can happen.
I rarely use a FL sizer because they tend to oversize cases which allows the case to fall to the bottom of the chamber. bullet is not centered in the bore but a hair lower. On a heavily tapered case, the bullet might even point "down".
but if you got a FL die that nicely matches your chamber dimension - yes it can happen on occasion, there is a risk the expander ball/rod is not true so you create runout in the sized neck when you pull the ball through the neck.
Finally, pulling that ball back through the case neck will cause it to stretch. I have only had 2 FL dies that worked as desired. I included the dies with the rifles when it was sold. So rare to find that "custom" fit, it was only fair the new owner enjoyed the goodness.
Partial sizing with a FL sizer, for me is a big no no. Depending on the chamber vs die dimension, a portion of the case neck will not be sized. Great way to develop donuts and other issues that can play havoc with reliable chambering and accurate fire.
some of my thoughts, agree - disagree... its all good.
Enjoy.
Jerry
The premise with all of this is to keep runout to a min, center the case in the chamber and have that bullet pointed true and centered to the bore.
This part is for ANY rifle with a bore that is concentric, round and true with the bore... some aren't and these rifles need far more intense help.
Before doing any serious load work up, I just fireform the new cases. Keep any eye on pressure signs and where the possible accuracy nodes are.
The cases are then Cleaned, neck sized using a Lee collet die and all necessary case prep done. For match rifles, I will anneal the necks.
The cases get 2nd firing with proper load work up to identify the accurate load. From this point, my procedure is the same.
Clean, Anneal, redding body die to bump shoulder to ensure proper chambering, clean, lee collet neck die, outside neck turn and trim, add fuel and bullet
So here is the difference:
Body die bumps the shoulder and possibly squeeze the top of the case body a schnick. It should not touch the rest of the case body except if your cases really get big (ie poor action lock up and/or over pressured loads). Nice way to monitor you do not have a mechanical issue or that you may be using up your nine lives.
This maintains the fireformed dimensions for the lower portion of the case which CENTERS the case in the chamber - all cases have some taper in the body and it is that taper which centers the case. The front of the case (the 'top' part of the shoulder and neck) should be clear of the chamber walls to allow for expansion during firing for proper bullet release.
Assume you have not create any runout in the sizing and seating steps (with proper dies you will not), the bullet is now centered with the bore and positive results can happen.
I rarely use a FL sizer because they tend to oversize cases which allows the case to fall to the bottom of the chamber. bullet is not centered in the bore but a hair lower. On a heavily tapered case, the bullet might even point "down".
but if you got a FL die that nicely matches your chamber dimension - yes it can happen on occasion, there is a risk the expander ball/rod is not true so you create runout in the sized neck when you pull the ball through the neck.
Finally, pulling that ball back through the case neck will cause it to stretch. I have only had 2 FL dies that worked as desired. I included the dies with the rifles when it was sold. So rare to find that "custom" fit, it was only fair the new owner enjoyed the goodness.
Partial sizing with a FL sizer, for me is a big no no. Depending on the chamber vs die dimension, a portion of the case neck will not be sized. Great way to develop donuts and other issues that can play havoc with reliable chambering and accurate fire.
some of my thoughts, agree - disagree... its all good.
Enjoy.
Jerry
