1/4 MOA? Push my reloads further or call it good?

gushulak

gushulak

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For all the tedious reloaders out there.....should I keep developing this load or call it good?

At the range recently shooting a Rem 700P, customized by Lyle L. in Selkirk, MB (whom I owe a beer for the range results!) Rifle has had everything done to it except for a new barrel, the stock one shoots great and has 400rds through it. Scope is a Leupold M3A 3.5-10-40mm LR (Mil Dot) with Badger rings, 20MOA base.

Load was handload:

New Winchester cases
43.0gr. Varget
Federal 210M match primer
Sierra 175gr. BTHP-MK
seated at 2.84", my lands start around 2.92" but seem to have the best accuracy around the .84-.85 mark.
Velocity 2650fps ave.
(cases match prepped, not weighed however)

Five shot groups at 100yards were exactly .250", basically one hole. At 200yards the groups where .445" with a heavy snow and 15km wind. I've shot this load to about 270yards with about .50-.60 groups, waiting for the spring to get it out to 1000. Was shooting off a rest using a sandbag as rear rest. Gun zeroed at 100yards as I have BDC in the scope if my 175gr. load is doing 2650fps.

I am very pleased with the groups this rifle/combo is capable of, far superior to my shooting skills. Should I be concerned about pushing the accuracy limit a bit more or should I call it a day. The OCD in me says I can load and shoot better, but the realistic side of me says call it a day?

What to do? I have 1K or virgin Lapua brass ready to try as well.......

Looking for comments on which way to proceed, I have 700rds of this load already loaded so I am good for shooting a bit. Lots of components of all types to play with if anyone has suggestions? Thanks guys!
 
I agree, if you're using benchrest dies that keep the sizing and seating in a str. line and therefore minimum runout, I'd call it a day! Not much more you can do, good shootin'.....
 
I wouldn't be pushing for tighter groups. However, I would be checking to see if the load is on an accuracy node, to ensure that it is robust.

To do this, I would load some rounds 0.3 gr. above and 0.3 gr. below and see if they group in same x-y location (relative to the point of aim) as your primary charge. Maybe shoot a few 9 shot groups at 300y with 3 of each charge weights. If you're on an accuracy node, it should still group well at that distance.
 
ben hunchak said:
I agree, if you're using benchrest dies that keep the sizing and seating in a str. line and therefore minimum runout, I'd call it a day! Not much more you can do, good shootin'.....
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I'm just using standard FL and neck RCBS dies for my loading. What seems to be the standard precision die for .308 loading? I can always upgrade my dies.

Thanks for the comments guys, good stuff.
 
Sounds like you've done everything well (your shooting included - you don't get 1/4 MOA groups unless everything, including the shooter, is doing a first-rate job).

If you will be shooting long range, then at some point you should chronograph a string of 10 or 15 rounds. You want to verify that the extreme spread of the velocities is under 45fps (ideally, under 30fps). This corresponds to a Standard Deviation of 15fps or less (or ideally, 10fps or less).

When you load for your Lapua brass, you will have to slightly reduce your powder charge, because the heavier Lapua cases are smaller inside (probably in the 0.5gr-0.7gr range).
 
i'll just add my voice to what the others have said- any variances you're getting from what you've established now are the slight differences in bullet weights, WIND, human variables, etc- whatever they are, they're certainly beyond your control
 
The variables are all but endless, so you can continue to experiment as long as there are things you can think of to try. Once you have a good load that is repeatable, log it into your data book and you can always fall back to it. If you can produce quarter inch groups on demand you are doing very well, but for some folks the Zen is in the journey rather than the destination. Lyle certainly knows how to crank the accuracy out of a rifle.
 
Nice shooting... I would say if your shooting 5 shot groups thru the same hole how much better can it get...

Hey for fun keep shooting at the same group see how many shots you can do before the grouping gets bigger... I remeber seeing somewhere that a fellow would only shoot 10 shot groups to evaluate accuracy wish I could remember what the artical was.
 
msq.drew said;--... I remeber seeing somewhere that a fellow would only shoot 10 shot groups to evaluate accuracy wish I could remember what the artical was.

I have read considerable about the great accuracy craze of the late 1800s and 10 shot groups were the only ones considered worthwhile to judge a rifles accuracy.
It's only in very recent years that many people consider three shots as a group size. In my opinion this is a joke, fluke groups. No test at all on whether a rifle is properly bedded, or not.
 
I agree if the point of the exercise is to precisely determine the accuracy of the rifle or load. If however the point is to get a good hunting load from a light contour barrel, the first 3 rounds are all that matter. As long as you know where those first 3 rounds print, and as long as you have determined that the results are repeatable, thats all you need.

I think we need to encourage people to return to practical marksmanship, rather than shooting tiny groups from the bench and thinking they know something about shooting. Put up a target at 200 yards and from field positions fire 1 shot per day at it for a month, without shooting from the same position on two consecutive days. A 2 MOA 30 shot group under those circumstances would be worth bragging about.
 
Gee Whiz! If that rifle gives that kind of accuracy consistently, that's not only great shooting, it's great accuracy too! Be proud, I would say. That group at 200 is a bit better than 1/4 moa by my reckoning. Of course, if you're like most shooters you'll probably sell the rifle now and buy some lame duck to work on that will break your heart and leave you penniless and alone :). On the off chance you're brighter than the rest of us and decide to keep the rifle, the suggestion of getting a scope with some more power seems a reasonable one to me. So I would like to go X2 on that. Fred
 
Like Komboytch said. Test a bit hotter and milder and make sure the groups don't fall apart.

In summer you might get the same results by loading a bit less powder.

Once thing you could do is to take your virgin cases and weigh them. I use the plastic coin buckets from the casino. (I won't call them 'free"). I label them in small increments (say 0.2 gr) and then weigh the brass on my electronic scales. You will find that most of the brass will fall with a one grain curve.
 
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If as you say, the rifle has the original barrel, you have gotten extremely lucky. Just like winning the lottery.

I suspect your smith did a bit of accuriseing that helps a lot.

Stick with exactly what you have if it works that well.

That being said, you don't mention your shooting conditions. I assume off the bench and bags at a range.

The things that will bite that accuracy on you won't have anything to do with your shooting technique from the sounds of things.

There are several things that will creep up on you if you're not careful.

a) wind - learn to use flags

b) fouling, both copper and powder - most people clean down to the bore
metal after 20 -25 rounds no matter what or after each shooting
session, even if it's less than 20 rounds.

c) sun and clouds - can and do cause vertical spread

d) torque on action screws - get a wrench and make sure they break at
the same inch pound setting every time you take the action out of the
stock, 150 rounds or if your groups are opening up when everything
else looks good.

e) throat erosion - after ever 200 rounds, your throat will erode a bit and
you will have to seat your bullets out a few thousandths of an inch to
maintain distance from the lead of the lands. Do this with a "nut gauge" and a cartridge that has been loaded without primer or powder and the bullet out long enough to be pushed bac into the neck, so you can get an accurate measurement. To many handloads in advance can give you a disadvantage.

f) paralax - the crosshairs of the reticle appear to move at different
distances, other than the original set up distance. Focus may change
as well. A good scope with adjustable focus and an adjustable
objective is a must. Unless your shooting will always be at one specific
distance and atmospheric conditions. Mirage is a killer, combined with wind it's impossible to take a demand shot, unless you can wait for the same condition for each shot. A whole new set of skills is require for this.

g) almost forgot - turn the necks so they are all consistant and uniform in thickness. Nec resize only, so that each bullet fired has consistant pressures. Some guys also debur and redrill the flash holes as well as weigh the brass to keep capacities the same.

h) "CONSISTANCY" is the secret and the golden rule for accuracy.

Whatever you do, if you want to maintain the accuracy of the rifle, be consistant and thorough. Also, shoot it a lot at different distances, under varying conditions. Have fun. After a few thousand rounds, you may find your average grouping opening up a bit, by 3500 it may be unacceptable and may be brought back, close, to square one by setting back the barrel until the lands are relatively fresh again. This should give you another 1000 to 1500 accurate rounds.

Incredibly accurate rifles are addicting and once you're hooked, it's very difficult to accept less. Especially if you like to shoot milsurps and normal hunting rifles. It can get very expensive chaseing the accuracy whore. Think about getting involved with a benchrest group, maybe starting out with "Hunter Benchrest" or "F class shooting" which is what your rifle is designed for. There are many more variables that can bite you, but the above will keep you busy.

bearhunter
 
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I am very pleased with the groups this rifle/combo is capable of, far superior to my shooting skills. Should I be concerned about pushing the accuracy limit a bit more or should I call it a day.
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Very commendable indeed; your satisfaction can only be determined by yourself. You could tinker away time and pesos in a near endless fashion for a near immeasurable improvement........however as someone else posted, the journey is the reward and not necessarily the destination. For myself, my personal objective terminates with a five shot one caliber group size at 100 yds (0.30 in. group for .30 cal).
Only 1/4 MOA? Might as well sell it as scrap and try again from the beginning.
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Funny.
 
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