ok ,i have a question ,how many times do you have to go to the range and shoot 1 moa 3 shot groups or less to consider your gun a 1 moa rifle?i own a couple that can do this no problem,1 especially that is consistent 1/2 moa if i can hold it.im just asking because alot of talk in the forum is that 1 moa is hard to find ,but i find that a bedded rifle with custom handloads its pretty easy to get it to shoot moa???????just my thoughts
1 moa
- Thread starter rainman
- Start date
3-shot groups don't tell as much about a rifle's and shooter's capability as a 5-shot group does. The higher amount of shots fired will give a better indicator of true performance and will be more statistically significant.
FWIW, when I find a load that appears very accurate, I'll load up at least 4-5 5-shot groups and fire them consecutively one after the other. Then I'll take the average of all groups and this is what I use to evaluate final load development of a particular combination of components.
Depending on the cartridge, I'll even do 10-shot groups to really test a load or rifle. For example, rimfire or .223 Remington.
Try a 5-shot and see if you can keep all of your rounds within 1". It might surprise you.
FWIW, when I find a load that appears very accurate, I'll load up at least 4-5 5-shot groups and fire them consecutively one after the other. Then I'll take the average of all groups and this is what I use to evaluate final load development of a particular combination of components.
Depending on the cartridge, I'll even do 10-shot groups to really test a load or rifle. For example, rimfire or .223 Remington.
Try a 5-shot and see if you can keep all of your rounds within 1". It might surprise you.
2bad4u2
In a match rifle that depends on the caliber and setup....A properly set up match rifle with a good barrel chambered in something like the 308 Win will shoot well inside moa all day every day.
Chamber the same 308 in a mediocre factory barrel set up in an un bedded and untrue action throw it all together in a lightweight hunting combination with a heavy trigger pull and well.....Lets just say it might test you patience.
Moa is no longer probable from the rifle or perhaps possible from the shooter.
In a match rifle that depends on the caliber and setup....A properly set up match rifle with a good barrel chambered in something like the 308 Win will shoot well inside moa all day every day.
Chamber the same 308 in a mediocre factory barrel set up in an un bedded and untrue action throw it all together in a lightweight hunting combination with a heavy trigger pull and well.....Lets just say it might test you patience.
Moa is no longer probable from the rifle or perhaps possible from the shooter.
X-fax: BTDT. I've several customs that are easily better performers than the factory rifles I have in the same caliber. Incidently, they are in 308 Winchester as well.
However, a good factory rifle can be a consistent performer providing the barrel is decent, chambered precisely, and action has close tolerances. Some people can shoot great with heavy factory set triggers, I can't.
I think people are putting waaaaaayyyy too much emphasis on building custom rifles. There's no gaurantee that a custom will out perform a factory rifle, though it is more likely to do so with a competent shooter behind the trigger.
A 2 MOA shooter behind a 1/2 MOA rifle still yields the same results.
2bad,
Factory rifles - with the exception of 40X's and maybe the new purpose-built F-class Savage - do not win competitions where group size matters.
There are few if any factory actions (Especially remingtons) that aren't crooked... factory throats are too long to optomize pressures and use magazines, and many factory stocks are mediocre. Factory triggers are usually in need of serious adjustment too.
It depends on your application, but in order to have a gun that groups well enough to put the shot where you want it every time. you either spend top-dollar on a high-end factory rifle (and still contend with its workmanship shortcomings) or you have one built for about the same price.
It all boils down to your personal taste and I completely agree with your statement about the shooter. Any gun will perform adequately at 100, but the shooter needs to have the skill to dope wind, use mirage, and use his scope properly to reach out.
For me, .5moa is not good enough. I play at very long distances and .5 MOA is over 8 inches at a mile. I need the gun to be tighter than that because usually I am not at that distance.
Factory rifles - with the exception of 40X's and maybe the new purpose-built F-class Savage - do not win competitions where group size matters.
There are few if any factory actions (Especially remingtons) that aren't crooked... factory throats are too long to optomize pressures and use magazines, and many factory stocks are mediocre. Factory triggers are usually in need of serious adjustment too.
It depends on your application, but in order to have a gun that groups well enough to put the shot where you want it every time. you either spend top-dollar on a high-end factory rifle (and still contend with its workmanship shortcomings) or you have one built for about the same price.
It all boils down to your personal taste and I completely agree with your statement about the shooter. Any gun will perform adequately at 100, but the shooter needs to have the skill to dope wind, use mirage, and use his scope properly to reach out.
For me, .5moa is not good enough. I play at very long distances and .5 MOA is over 8 inches at a mile. I need the gun to be tighter than that because usually I am not at that distance.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I would think that if the rifle can be shot in ten different rounds, you could call it a "half minute" or a " one minute " rirfle.
However, for that to mean anyanything at all, as was stated, it would have to be done in the dicipline it was intended, TR, or F class, etc.
If that is the case, you would have to fire a whole bunch more rounds per heat, because I know of knowwhere where a thre shot string consists of a target round!
As was mentioned, it's kind of a moot point in a lot of applications.
Cat
However, for that to mean anyanything at all, as was stated, it would have to be done in the dicipline it was intended, TR, or F class, etc.
If that is the case, you would have to fire a whole bunch more rounds per heat, because I know of knowwhere where a thre shot string consists of a target round!
As was mentioned, it's kind of a moot point in a lot of applications.
Cat
I think a lot of people keep there best target say 1/4 or 1/2 for five and call the rifle a 1/4 gun!
I am thrilled to shoot my tactical rifles for groups into 1.25 or 1 moa.
Yesterday I shot at orono and shot alot of ammo off with mixed results.
I shot 70 rounds into 14 different 5 shot groups a mixed bag of ammo and i was pleased with an average of 1.5 moa!
I no the guns better than this and i hope to get this result down from 1.5 to close to 1 moa.
Sure i have a few 1/2 to 3/4 goups bur had a few 2 " groups as well.
I will not call it a 1" gun until i get 50 into a 1" avg.
will my shooting skills do it, Maybe maybe not.
The gun still needs some trigger work and load development!!
This is the way i look at it!
I am thrilled to shoot my tactical rifles for groups into 1.25 or 1 moa.
Yesterday I shot at orono and shot alot of ammo off with mixed results.
I shot 70 rounds into 14 different 5 shot groups a mixed bag of ammo and i was pleased with an average of 1.5 moa!
I no the guns better than this and i hope to get this result down from 1.5 to close to 1 moa.
Sure i have a few 1/2 to 3/4 goups bur had a few 2 " groups as well.
I will not call it a 1" gun until i get 50 into a 1" avg.
will my shooting skills do it, Maybe maybe not.
The gun still needs some trigger work and load development!!
This is the way i look at it!
Based on his question it's a pretty big assumption that he's looking to compete in matches.
Hey, purpose built match rifles do win their fair share of competitions with competent shooters behind the trigger but it's wrong to say that factory built rifles can't be competitive.
I'll put my money on an experienced shooter with a factory rifle over someone with lessor knowledge behind a mega-dollar custom.
Hey, purpose built match rifles do win their fair share of competitions with competent shooters behind the trigger but it's wrong to say that factory built rifles can't be competitive.
I'll put my money on an experienced shooter with a factory rifle over someone with lessor knowledge behind a mega-dollar custom.
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Based on 3 shot groups, I would say never, unless the rifle will do this every time. Even then, this would be limited to single 3 shot groups.
A Sniper's rifle needs to hit point of aim first shot, every shot, cold barrel. That is an impressive standard of accuracy.
A lot of chaps carry THE GROUP around in their wallet. Doesn't really tell much, it was a one time thing.
The pattern formed by the fall of shots from a rifle is mathematically random. The entire spread produced by a really accurate rifle will be much smaller than that produced by an indifferent one. An indifferent rifle or shooter can produce a bughole group on occasion. There are shooters who cannot shoot a 1 moa group with a championship level benchrest rifle.
An accurate rifle will perform day in, day out. If you have a rifle like this, its a good one, to be cherished.
+1 on this point.....glad someone brought it up as there never seems to be much mention of this......cold bore plotting is a valuable tool in really knowing your rifle and how it consistently preforms.
I agree about the shooter........Not so much with the custom gun thing.
Here are my thoughts...
1) Most factory triggers are junk.
2) Most factory stocks are junk. They are way too flexible and/or do not fit (me) well.
3) Most factory actions need to be bedded and most need some form of tune up.
4) Some of the issues mentioned above can and do haunt shooters during load development creating all kind of frustration and costing plenty of money.
5) After all of that stuff is delt with the factory barrel may still be found insufficiently accurate and may need replacement.
6) Some factory barrels are accurate but foul like a pig. Clean, clean, clean. I for one hate cleaning barrels.
If a guy has the money and his time is worth anything a custom gun is the way to go...even if the accuracy of the factory rifle is better the tuned custom gun will normally be more consistent, better fitting, and easier to shoot.
Lots of guys have factory rifles that shoot well....No argument there. My own 300 win Rem Sendero is a good shooter but here are the things that bug me about it.
1) It needs a recoil pad $100.00
2) It needs a cheek piece.... $200.00 installed for the one I want
3) The factory trigger was adjusted $50.00. Still didn't like the pull so I went Jewel...$50.00 down the drain.
4) The action did not sit well in the factory bedding block and caused fliers $75.00
5) The barrel shoots sub minute, but I want more. More is not hard to get in a custom rifle.
6) The barrel fouls badly after 30 shots...Accuracy becomes 1.25+ moa until I scrub it out.
7) It had a J lock (which I hated) ...another $150.00
There is not right answere here, but there is nothing worse than shooting expensive junk.
Well, are we talking about a sub MOA rifle or shooter? Realistically it should be put in a machine rest and tested. The shooter is usually the problem, so load your favourite round and test it in a machine rest, maybe you are the weakest link, goodbye.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
What range?
More like 2 moa up to about 250yds. Cheers
Depends greatly on distance to target, and cartridge for me. I can shoot 5 shot 1 moa groups @ 100yds with my ArmaLite AR15, definitely not at 200yds though
More like 2 moa up to about 250yds. Cheers
