Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
10.5" vs. 14.5" barrel
- Thread starter CDCarts
- Start date
This post makes me chuckle. I wrote practically the exact same thing on Yahoo answers a couple years back and got something like 20 "thumbs down"s and hardly any "thumbs up"s from all sorts of people. Some claiming to be armorers, others claiming to be "Marines". The Internet can be really annoying...Barrel length is a factor of what do you want to do.
In Canada, (unlike here) your not restricted by annoying rules on BBL length for AR's (its not just the Tax for SBR's, but the hassle of taking them out of state etc.).
Shorter Barrels mean more muzzle blast, and Flash.
While down here ou can suppress them (at least in Free States) - but that is not possible for civilian enthusiasts in Canada -- so your uber cool micro barrel will probably be an annoyance to the shooters beside you.
Short barrels of equal diamter and profile will be more rigid than a longer version (I mean this is simple physics) While this should mean less barrel whip, barrel harmonics are a thing of their own -- the forces from the exploding gasses cause pressure waves running down the barrel, and combination with pressue exherted on the barrel from the bullet running down the bore, this creates its own little dance.
Now for bolt guns etc with no gas system thats all that she wrote.
If you add in a gas system, when then you have even more going on.
In a DI gun the gas is vectored back thru the tube - and exits the gun prior to any carrier motion, so its just the waves hitting the gas block that can make for funny things, in a piston gun well you get movement and rearward pressure earlier - so they can act even stranger.
That said - ANY good barrel from 10.5" -20" will give you very similar results - the amount of difference we are talking about is so insignificant that human error, and ammunition capability will make it unnoticeabe.
So it comes down to what barrel length do you want/need.
Its not the errornet for nothing
The other issue on Short Barrel performance is powder burn rates.
You can get some huge Extreme Spreads - thus massive Standard Deviation on short barrels with some ammunitions. This will greatly affect the vertical dispersion of your group.
As an example - I did some 11.5" accuracy testing two years ago. Using several non commercial available ammuntions we saw average groups size to be around .5 -.75" at 100yds with those loads.
When shooting other loads the guns where 1.5 -4MOA
One specifical loading vertically string round around 3" - when chronoed the rounds where in excess of 250fps difference. Now extrapolate that even further...
The other issue on Short Barrel performance is powder burn rates.
You can get some huge Extreme Spreads - thus massive Standard Deviation on short barrels with some ammunitions. This will greatly affect the vertical dispersion of your group.
As an example - I did some 11.5" accuracy testing two years ago. Using several non commercial available ammuntions we saw average groups size to be around .5 -.75" at 100yds with those loads.
When shooting other loads the guns where 1.5 -4MOA
One specifical loading vertically string round around 3" - when chronoed the rounds where in excess of 250fps difference. Now extrapolate that even further...
You can also consistently use a poor shooting position, consistently yank the trigger, consistently have poor cheek weld/sight alignment.
Consistency is very important, I totally agree. You just have to be consistent in using good technique.
And both my ARs have a FA - not sure if that is degrading my shooting performance on not.
If you consistently use poor form, and zero your rifle accordingly, your groups will be consistent. They may not be the best possible for the rifle in question but they will be consistent. A novice handgun shooter will usually shoot consistently low and left, with little to no experience/training. Its not the desired result, but the group is consistent.
TDC
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
A consistently lousy group is not marksmanship.
Marksmanship is the ability to consistently hit your point of aim (your mark) from all required positions.
Marksmanship is the ability to consistently hit your point of aim (your mark) from all required positions.
What TDC is saying, though, is that if your form is lousy but identical every time, you will actually group well.
If you slap the #### out of your trigger, but every time you slap it, you do it at an angle of exactly 37.9 degrees with a pressure of exactly 4.16 kg at a speed of exactly 6.2 m/s, and your cheek is not even touching the stock but it is always exactly 3.16 cm above it and 3.4mm left, and you cant your rifle at 71 degrees to the right, and you only let your shoulder contact the stock on the top 1/2 cm...BUT THAT IS HOW YOU ZEROED IT and you ALWAYS do EXACTLY THAT...actually you will shoot extremely well and your groups will be tiny.
So actually you CAN have terrible form AS LONG AS it's absolutely consistent. The reason form is important is that it is just a much easier way to be consistent, because nobody really gets good at holding their eye in exactly the same spot behind the scope without having their cheek touch the stock, etc, etc. But if you could, you could be every bit as good as someone with what most people would consider better form.
If you slap the #### out of your trigger, but every time you slap it, you do it at an angle of exactly 37.9 degrees with a pressure of exactly 4.16 kg at a speed of exactly 6.2 m/s, and your cheek is not even touching the stock but it is always exactly 3.16 cm above it and 3.4mm left, and you cant your rifle at 71 degrees to the right, and you only let your shoulder contact the stock on the top 1/2 cm...BUT THAT IS HOW YOU ZEROED IT and you ALWAYS do EXACTLY THAT...actually you will shoot extremely well and your groups will be tiny.
So actually you CAN have terrible form AS LONG AS it's absolutely consistent. The reason form is important is that it is just a much easier way to be consistent, because nobody really gets good at holding their eye in exactly the same spot behind the scope without having their cheek touch the stock, etc, etc. But if you could, you could be every bit as good as someone with what most people would consider better form.
TDC - using your concept one could zero for lousy consistency and get good results.
Unfortunately that does not work out in real life, as poor fundementals will result in the inconsistent application of the marksmanship principles - and thus a lousy or no group at all.
Edit - what Mis said above...
Unfortunately that does not work out in real life, as poor fundementals will result in the inconsistent application of the marksmanship principles - and thus a lousy or no group at all.
Edit - what Mis said above...
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I recently competed in a Precison match with a new rifle.
1st event 200 yards rapid with no sighters. I over compensated for wind (at least I think that was my mistake) and missed the targets on all 10 shots. Based on my 100 yard testing before the match and my scores on longer distances later in the day, I probably shot a good group at 200 - but it was not on target and I got a zero for that event.
Poor marksmanship, period.
1st event 200 yards rapid with no sighters. I over compensated for wind (at least I think that was my mistake) and missed the targets on all 10 shots. Based on my 100 yard testing before the match and my scores on longer distances later in the day, I probably shot a good group at 200 - but it was not on target and I got a zero for that event.
Poor marksmanship, period.
What length were you using and how far between your POA and MPI?
The wind shift on a 5.56 @ 200 is not that bad. Most hold off I've used on a really windy day was 1/2 target @ 200 so about 4-5" or so. (keep in mind those were 20" and 16" uppers) With the decreased MV on the shorter barrel it could just be a matter of a new set of windage formulas having to be input into your head.
That isn't poor marksmanship man, don't beat yourself up, that's just a little lack of experience on that particular rifle. Easily solved by time, and money (Range time, Courses and Ammo) just like everything else. Like you said your group was probably good, just have to shift it over a bit ( or a lot
) You'll catch your groove, no worries.
Best of both worlds. 10.5" barrel under a 12" forearm. Had to open up the end a few thou to get the flash pig in there, but is very handy... and light.
10.5" is my favorite barrel length. However I am beginning to eat the kool-aid (dry) on the long forearm.
Just an FYI for anyone else out there interested in this custom combo.
I spoke to Ryan at SFRC regarding the possibilty of ordering something like this he said that he is in contact with NEA about these units and they are trying to work something out, of course it will cost more.
OldFrankHog
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Gatineau QC
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
What length were you using and how far between your POA and MPI?
The wind shift on a 5.56 @ 200 is not that bad. Most hold off I've used on a really windy day was 1/2 target @ 200 so about 4-5" or so. (keep in mind those were 20" and 16" uppers) With the decreased MV on the shorter barrel it could just be a matter of a new set of windage formulas having to be input into your head.
That isn't poor marksmanship man, don't beat yourself up, that's just a little lack of experience on that particular rifle. Easily solved by time, and money (Range time, Courses and Ammo) just like everything else. Like you said your group was probably good, just have to shift it over a bit ( or a lot
You'll catch your groove, no worries.
I'm not worried....much. I wish I had asked the target markers if they new where my MPI was for that match. I only had one indicator between the two figure 12s. Either I dumped 5 rounds inside an inch or two at 200 or .....I have no idea.
Anyway, based on results back to 800 yards later that day I got back on track V's started happening (not most of the time but they happened). My point is that a miss is a miss and getting a zero on a stage is an example of poor marksmanship. My hold was good, breathing good, decently consistent but I screwed up a windage adjustment on my scope. The result was zero and is poor marksmanship. I am guessing that I had a fine group at 200, but not on target.
The upside is I learned from that and I will apply that next time out....to improve my marksmanship.
Anyway, this is off topic. Back to the thread.
There was some tactical firearms magazine at McNally Robinson today, article in it testing optimum barrel length. They took a long barrel mounted on an AR, and then cut it down in 1" increments and did various measurements. It seems they deduced 14.5" was the optimum, with diminishing returns as you got smaller. Sorry, I had only a moment for a quick browse. At least this may get you headed to the magazine rack and look for the mag for a more in-depth read than I could do. Article was mentioned on the cover of the mag.
What with not being in the military and actually knowing for sure, I was under the impression that only the SFW barrel was 16" and that the bulk of C8s were 14.5". Why didn't the CF just procure 16" barrels instead of more 14.5"s if they did all this research? Especially since they had the tooling in place...
Mr. wicked police,
Ok well I had started that thread on holster, and had not realized what holster it in fact was, is that ok with you? I also was not looking to become any kind of a pro, or thinking such things at all. Secondly I have been shooting guns since I was a kid around the age of 6-7 years of age as I grew up in the country, I am now 40. I by no means need a bib, a bucket and all that crap, I have a process engineering degree and do ok without anyones assistance in any part of life.
I only got back into shooting myself a year ago as I had a 5 year break due to my career requirements etc, sorry that new products have came out and that I needed to do research. Apparently there are people who are quick to point out downfalls of someone that is new or back new in the hobby, as for me this is a "hobby" nothing more. Sorry I can only hope that in a year or so on the site and getting more time to be invloved again in shooting that I will be so super intelligent as you sir and hopefully the side effect is not what you posses now which is being an A-Hole to others that are newer to the site.
On any online forum my intent is to learn, and when I have accumalated real life experience to back what I may have been told, then I will gladly go out of my way to help someone. Apparently there are some people who have a different agenda and that to me is not only not constructive but just rude. If you came to other forums for other hobbies I am interested and very active in I could school you six ways to sunday and you yourself sir would feel past "dumb". However I would NOT point that out in public forum, nor would I try to make you feel dumb, or call you retarded. I sir would 100% go out of my way to simply help you and understand that I to was in your shoes at one point.
Something to think about, I'd rather come off to others as "new" or "retarded" as you put it, then coming off as a complete jerk.
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