10 Rd AR mags in 3 Gun
- Thread starter js
- Start date
Dragoon said:
Then there is no reason that someone with a 10 round Pistol Magazine (if it fits their Rifle) can't use that 10 round magazine in competition.
There are versions of the AR (and other long guns) that use 10 round Glock Pistol Magazines... there are versions of AR's that use 10 round 9mm LAR-15 Pistol Magazines and now there are 10 round .223/5.56 LAR-15 Pistol Magazines that will fit all standard magazine AR.
As was previously pointed out earlier in this thread... these matches are competitions... the idea that some competitors don't like it when others have better equipment, well that's just too bad for them
Mark
- Location
- Halifax - NS
Rule 3.3 "Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction..." trumps that - (Hence max 10 in Canada in Pistols...) Seeking clarification of this situation is important to IPSC Canada.Dragoon said:
We never want to see a headline read "Police raid IPSC shooting competition. 8 people arrested." and we never want competitors to feel that they must break the law to be competitive.
From Mark's posts and chatting with him - I'm reasonably sure that everything's cool. 10 Round mags for AR-15s is a GOOD thing for IPSC rifle competition. We have requested some additional written confirmation from the CFC to protect our members and address thier concerns.
sounds good Sean! Always best to check things out to make sure as we all know how the Laws in Canada work =........ Subject to interpretation!
I think this can help the popularity of IPSC Rifle matches,......do you think it would change the "no more than 4 rounds required from one shooting position" rule? I mean, it would allow ( i think) easier stage set up for rifle/ handgun matches,.....just changing some distances...as all mags will be 10rds regardless if handgun or rifle is being used.............perhaps rifle stages will have 4 targets with best 2 rounds per target for rifle from one shooting position!! 
I think this can help the popularity of IPSC Rifle matches,......do you think it would change the "no more than 4 rounds required from one shooting position" rule? I mean, it would allow ( i think) easier stage set up for rifle/ handgun matches,.....just changing some distances...as all mags will be 10rds regardless if handgun or rifle is being used.............perhaps rifle stages will have 4 targets with best 2 rounds per target for rifle from one shooting position!!
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Sorry, I guess I should have noted that not all 3 gun matches are under IPSC rules or sanction ,but match directors can stipulate in course design when mag changes required.
Still think if it's legally available to competitors they should be allowed to compete with them.
However I do see the distinction in class in US as Limited and Limited 10.
Keep up the great work Mark.
Still think if it's legally available to competitors they should be allowed to compete with them.
However I do see the distinction in class in US as Limited and Limited 10.
Keep up the great work Mark.
Question is who is willing to invite the RCMP to a match with these mags?? if your answered holy crap why would we.... then I would wait for written clarification.... and if there is any descrepency in the decisions (CFO/CFC vs. RCMP)... take up a collection and petition courts for a ruling.... Better safe than sorry.... I for one would not be willing to risk my license for something that isn't 100%.... for example... alot of us use a block of wood and a philips screw to pin hi-cap mags... is it legal or not... some say yes others say no....
in the case of 10 rnd mags for ar's better to ask before you do than do and ask for forgiveness later. I hope it is all good as Mark said...
just my .02
in the case of 10 rnd mags for ar's better to ask before you do than do and ask for forgiveness later. I hope it is all good as Mark said...
just my .02
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Even the law has to follow it's own fractured logic. The law cannot make the distinction between an "illegal" Beretta Storm Cx4 10rnd magazine and a "legal" Beretta 10rnd pistol magazine on the one hand, yet not make a distinction between an "illegal" 10 round AR15 magazine and a "legal" LAR15 10rnd pistol mag.
It's the same premise.
It's the same premise.
Six Star said:
well they seem to think they can.... but this site has the info. that explains it enough for me.... and since it's the RCMP and CFC's website I'd feel safe to say they are legal....
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/bulletins/police/bulletin68_e.asp
maxpig said:
Well, interesting that you should say that... but I invited a member of the RCMP out to the range today with me to test some of the new magazines from the shipment that came in. He was quite impressed with his new AR and with the magazines... worked quite flawlessly... not a single failure to feed and all of them "drop-free" every time... he's buying some for his personal use... as are quite a few other members of law enforcement who are also shooters (off duty).
By the way a "block of wood and a philips screw to pin hi-cap mags" doesn't meet any standard that I've ever seen for pinning magazines... but then what do I know
... now I base that opinion on the wording contained in the "Former Magazine Cartridge Control Regulations"...(5) For the purposes of subsection (4), altering or re-manufacturing a cartridge magazine includes
(a) the indentation of its casing by forging, casting, swaging or impressing;
(b) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
(c) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.
who makes the Mags????????????? a 10 rounder that doesnt work well isn't much better then 2 5's that do.A document with the RCMP officer's name who gave the Ok would be nice. It would be al ot better to say Officer Harry Paratestes has approved this magazine then too say it was approved by the RCMP if a question on legality was ever raised by a border guard or police officer. You asked for names. rank and postion to support suggestions of these not being ok for rifles, how about the same to support the legality.
The Storm, CCU, Glock AR lowers all use existing pistol mags in pistol calibers, made for pistols. Where as the AR pistol is a shortend rifle using rifle mags for a rifle caliber that have been shortend to only hold 10 rounds in a pistol that was adapted from a rifle.
They're shortened rifle mags, they are the same specs in the fuctional areas as an AR rifle mag but shorter and have some engraving put on them. Would we be able to get 30 round AR 15 mags that have the model number for the Remington pump rifle engraved on them? Just being the devil's advocate, there's a lot at risk here and I don't want to see this blow up in all our faces.
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Have you even looked at Questar's site???? the fact that they look the same, or are the same lengh as a "rifle" mag, does not make them such. they were manufactured as a pistol mag (Unless you seem to know more then the manufacture who made them.. )Madness said:
Again you don't seem to see the difference.. the Remington Pump is designed to take ANY AR Mag. it's very different from an "REmington Pump designed Mag" being able to fit in any AR. these are two different and opposite situation.. the difference is the specification of the MAG. not the gun it's used in. there is a big difference. Stamping a mag, is very different from the "intent" of the manufacturer to design if for a pistol. you can't just write on it , and make it legal (as is clear in the RCMP's outlined dicision if you actually read it)
I have read the site, the letter from MR ###xx ###x, and asked who made the mags in a different thread but was ignored. Isn't the AR pistol lower identical to the rifle lower? So the pistol would be designed to take any AR mag right? just like the Remington. but some one made this whole "new design" pistol mag and its all good, so why not have the same company make a mag in between the 30 and 40 and call it a mag specificly design for the Remington pump action rifle?
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Madness said:
Yes the AR pistol will hold any ARG mag, but again the criteria for a prohibited magazine, is 100% based on the magainze, and nothing to do with the rifle at all. The LAR-15 Magazines have been designed specifically for that pistol. the current Remington ones are NOT. they are 3rd party AR rifle mags. (As far as I know..anyone know specifics?) if you can get Remington to show that they have designed and manufactured the Mag specifically for that pump rifle, then they "could" get approved.
Now.. if you got some local 3rd party company who can design, and build you a 30 rd mag for the pump rifle, then you might have a way to get the mag approved (I suspect it would be easier then getting remington to do it, as this is just a Canadaian issue, and low $$ margine for them if they did do it).
Dlask maybe??
but a mag for the pump rifle would just be an AR Mag with different markings on it since the gun is designed to take AR mags like the pistol.
It would be nice to know who the RCMP officer is that gave the OK on these so that someone who isn't selling these could contact them and ask a few questions.
It would be nice to know who the RCMP officer is that gave the OK on these so that someone who isn't selling these could contact them and ask a few questions.
Madness said:
don't confuse the Rifle with the Mag..
Yes the gun (Remington pump) is designed to take ANY AR Mag.. this is not an issue, and does NOT effect the classification of the magazine.. they TWO DIFFERENT components, and are judged seperatly.
you have to look at the Magazine ALL BY ITSELF.. and ask the following questions
1) Is the Magazine just a common magazine design, and is just used in this particular firearm.
a) Remington mag - Yes, it's just a relabeled AR mag which was ORIGINALLY designed for the AR rifle..
b) LAR Mag - NO, that mag was designed for that specific pistol, and it manufactured and labeled to be used as such.
It does not matter if the two look the same and have specs the same, and work in the same guns.. the critera for "Acceptance" is base on the DESIGN.. WHAT WAS IT INTENDED FOR WHEN IT WAS DESIGNED AND BUILT AND SOLD..
So again, and this thread although long, I think is important....as it allows more rounds to be used in an AR type rifle and basically is a loophole...
on a related subject.....,
--*if a magazine of 20 or 30 rds was made for the Pump rifle specifically,....how would that effect the law regarding mag capacity for that Magazine.....ie: Could the mag specifically made for a pump rifle be used in an AR variant, and would it be legal......?
on a related subject.....,
--*if a magazine of 20 or 30 rds was made for the Pump rifle specifically,....how would that effect the law regarding mag capacity for that Magazine.....ie: Could the mag specifically made for a pump rifle be used in an AR variant, and would it be legal......?
