10 Round AIA Enfield/M14 Magazines.

[Pr589]

Well that's disappointing! That "dual use" thing is getting dangerous

...and endangering respect for the law given that they have defined a new "dual use" magazine category (which is ultra vires i.e. outside of their authority), and contradictory to the law which is clear that magazines designed for use in manually operated rifles (AIA Enfield) have no capacity limits.

While many of us know this, for those that don't - the Enfield 10-round capacity clause is an exemption to the 5 round limit for magazines designed and manufactured for semi-automatic rifles and atypical semi-automatic handguns; thus not a maximum on a magazine designed and manufactured for a manually operated rifle.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-462/fulltext.html

See Part 4, section 3 of the Criminal Code.

See highlighted words for the Definition of a Prohibited Magazine:

• 3. (1) Any cartridge magazine
  • (a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
    • (i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
    • (ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,
    • (iii) an automatic firearm whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger,
    • (iv) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the Ingram M10 and M11 pistols, and any variants or modified versions of them, including the Cobray M10 and M11 pistols, the RPB M10, M11 and SM11 pistols and the SWD M10, M11, SM10 and SM11 pistols,
    • (v) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Partisan Avenger Auto Pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, or
    • (vi) the firearm of the design commonly known as the UZI pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Micro-UZI pistol; or
  • (b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
• (2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not include any cartridge magazine that
  • (a) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that
    • (i) is chambered for, or designed to use, rimfire cartridges,
    • (ii) is a rifle of the type commonly known as the “Lee Enfield” rifle, where the magazine is capable of containing not more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed, or
    • (iii) is commonly known as the U.S. Rifle M1 (Garand) including the Beretta M1 Garand rifle, the Breda M1 Garand rifle and the Springfield Armoury M1 Garand rifle;

 

[johnone]

PR589;B
"While many of us know this, for those that don't - the Enfield 10-round capacity clause is an exemption to the 5 round limit for magazines designed and manufactured for semi-automatic rifles and atypical semi-automatic handguns; thus not a maximum on a magazine designed and manufactured for a manually operated rifle."

The reason the Enfield mag shows up at all is simply because the mag fitted the Charlton LMG, as was therefore a magazine for an an automatic weapon....
John

 

[DOOK]

Excuse me while I puke!

 

[Travis Bickle]

PR589;B
"While many of us know this, for those that don't - the Enfield 10-round capacity clause is an exemption to the 5 round limit for magazines designed and manufactured for semi-automatic rifles and atypical semi-automatic handguns; thus not a maximum on a magazine designed and manufactured for a manually operated rifle."

The reason the Enfield mag shows up at all is simply because the mag fitted the Charlton LMG, as was therefore a magazine for an an automatic weapon....
John

Damn!
This whole thing was foiled by an obscure Kiwi machine gun produced in less than 2000 guns in the 1940's!?

 

[fenceline]

Damn!
This whole thing was foiled by an obscure Kiwi machine gun produced in less than 2000 guns in the 1940's!?

Which in itself used magazines built and designed for the Lee Enfield bolt action rifle, not built and designed for the machine gun. The way the law works for everything else, if they didn't write in the exception, the ten round bolt action Lee Enfield mags would still be legal.

Just another example of the Firearms Act authors not understanding guns, let alone what exactly they were writing.

 

[krprice84]

I would bet money, and if I had it I'd take it to court, that the rcmp interpretation is not valid. It clearly and unambiguously goes against the law.

Even if that exemption is there, it is only exempting magazines designed for lee Enfield type rifles which are semi automatic or automatic firearms. These magazines are neither. They simply cannot support their position in any legal way. I assume that by the spirit of the law they may get away with it, since clearly the law was intended to limit magazine capacity for semi auto rifles and handguns, . The problem 16th this is that, by other positions which they stand for, that spirit is not followed. It's one or the other.

On the other hand, if it were fought in court, there is the chance that the rcmp would say, if the judge ruled in the spirit of the law (can they do that? Rule on parliaments intent), "fine, you want the spirit of the law, the judge just set precedent for that, pistol mags and your ten round aia mags are gone....eat a ####" then what? We need this country's laws fixed, mot just the firearms ones but many of them. They seem like they were written by children

 

[Pr589]

I would bet money, and if I had it I'd take it to court, that the rcmp interpretation is not valid. It clearly and unambiguously goes against the law.

Even if that exemption is there, it is only exempting magazines designed for lee Enfield type rifles which are semi automatic or automatic firearms. These magazines are neither. They simply cannot support their position in any legal way. I assume that by the spirit of the law they may get away with it, since clearly the law was intended to limit magazine capacity for semi auto rifles and handguns, . The problem 16th this is that, by other positions which they stand for, that spirit is not followed. It's one or the other.

On the other hand, if it were fought in court, there is the chance that the rcmp would say, if the judge ruled in the spirit of the law (can they do that? Rule on parliaments intent), "fine, you want the spirit of the law, the judge just set precedent for that, pistol mags and your ten round aia mags are gone....eat a ####" then what? We need this country's laws fixed, mot just the firearms ones but many of them. They seem like they were written by children

If we were to draw conclusions on the basis of Dan's (Cyclone's) hearings, the Ontario courts are not averse to creation of poorly reasoned and fuzzy case law so that they can play well with the CFO, the Crown and the government. In the case of the AIA mags, the law is crystal clear and I find it hard to believe that the courts could easily twist things to meet their desired outcome. Then again, getting involved with shooting sports has shaken lots of my beliefs about the enforcement of law, regulations and the conduct of the Crown and the Courts.

I think that notwithstanding the bad law of the Firearms Act (the contradictions, lack of enforceability and vagueness) and its effect on firearms ownership/use there is a larger issue. It is causing or perhaps revealing gaps in the legal and enforcement structure of the country. One has to think that this is dangerous in the long run and may breed the attitudes and behaviours least desired by any well intentioned government.

 

[mkrnel]

In reference to the questions about 10 round Enfield mag limits.

Just wondering but were does this put the hundreds of 12 round magazine 7.62x51mm (.308) Ishapore 2A1 Lee Enfield rifles in Canada? When I had one it would easily hold 12 rounds in the mag! are these rifles and mags now prohibited firearms?

 

[Pr589]

In reference to the questions about 10 round Enfield mag limits.

Just wondering but were does this put the hundreds of 12 round magazine 7.62x51mm (.308) Ishapore 2A1 Lee Enfield rifles in Canada? When I had one it would easily hold 12 rounds in the mag! are these rifles and mags now prohibited firearms?

There are no limitations in law on the mag capacity of manually operated rifles, Enfield or not. The 10 round number is in reference to a specific exception to the 5 round capacity for semi-autos. This exception was made specifically for Enfield rifles, one rare version of which was converted into full auto (Charlton Automatic Rifle).

That said, the CFC has deemed the AIA mags as being dual use. This won't be clarified until there is a court challenge.

 

[DOOK]

Irrc, this whole 'dual use' BS started with a mag tube extension that fit both a semi, and pump shotgun.
There is no such language in law. Apparently, they can make it up as they go along.

 

[TT_270wsm]

Anybody can make them, if they want to.... One could make any capacity mag for this rifle since it is a bolt action
John

The reason the Enfield mag shows up at all is simply because the mag fitted the Charlton LMG, as was therefore a magazine for an an automatic weapon....
John

so... which one is it then? Maybe you could be the first to go against the wording of the law and produce us >10 round AIA magazines?

The exemption applies to original Enfield mags .... Since the AIA is a bolt action no problem exists
John

Great! Get on production then, you will sell thousands. Will probably be predominantly anonymous cash sales though, for no particular reason.

I haven't been around in a while, but I thought you said you had left the forum? Just couldn't resist us could you...

 

[cz52]

So are these supermags here yet?