10 Shot groups......

notsorichguy

notsorichguy

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I have never subscribed to the idea that a 10 shot group was neccissarily a snap shot of a rifles true accuracy.

On the other hand I had a real good day at the range yesterday, I had 10 shells left and I decided to try a 10 shot group to see if the bedding & trigger job I had just done on a brand new rifle was 'good'.

Needless to say I think this one is pretty good, Factory rifle, Factory barrel, Factory ammo....... What say you?

The result;

IMG_0079.jpg


The one high and to the righ was all me..... I twitched when my 'rear bag moved slightly...... Thats what happens when you use 3 boxes of shells to as a rear bag!
 
I am not a believer in 3 shot groups and wish people would not post them. I prefer 8 or even 10 shots because in my case shots 3 to 10 often help fill the big gap between shots 1 and 2.
Pitty I have little ability to read my groups and tell what I'm doing wrong.

Very good group imo with factory ammo.
 
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Looks pretty good to me. I'd say you can pretty fairly call that an honest 1-MOA rifle, especially if you are able to do that most of the time you try to. Which might not sound so impressive when compared to easily- and lightly- made internet claims, but it actually a pretty decent level of performance to actually achieve.
 
Nice shooting ! I normally shoot, and post/quote, in 5 shot groups as, like a previous poster, I think 3 shot groups are not enough to make accuracy claims. I read a while back that 7 shot groups are thought to be the most statistically viable but I can't recall the math details behind that claim. Either which way your 10 shot group is very nice - good for you !
 
The rifle is a Remington SPS Tacical, I bedded the entire barrel channel and weighed it down with 8500 grains of cast boolits (3500 in the forestock and 5000 in the butt). I used a brownelles Acra glass (GEL) bedding kit. I wasnt planning on putting a trigger on it as it already had a x-mark pro trigger on it, but I managed to snap the trigger off at the point where the adjustment screw penetrates the trigger paddle...... So I bought a timney from a local shop and presto.

The scope..... well I was in a rush to try it out, all I had sitting around was a cheapo Tasco 2.5 to 10 rimfire scope....... Needless to say better glass is in the plans.

I was shooting off a Harris bi-pod (one with out the swivel), and I had forgotten my rear bag, so I was using a couple of boxes of shells to support the butt of the rifle.

I had 5 differnt types of ammo to see which one my rifle liked best, all of them shot at least MOA at 100y (3 & 5 shot groups).

Winds were from my 10 o`clock to my 4 o`clock @ 30Kph and the temp was 31c

The ammo is Hornady Match ammo, 168gr A-Max...... After shooting this group my first stop on the way back into town was to the shop where I bought the ammo to buy up the rest of their stock of the ammo...... I could't resist.

Next step is to build a load, and then see what the rifle can really do!

I didn't post the range in the first post (I thought I had) but that is a 200y group..... I would have been happy to see that size group in a 3 or 5 shot, but I figgure thats a real nice 200y group!

Cheers!
 
Dip that rifle in loc tite. Nice group and it will only get better when you tune a load for it. Id like to see your load development with some good glass.

Edit: Didn't read that you were using match ammo.
 
You might be able to make an argument that large round count groups are not needed for well tuned bolt guns as long as you are comparing such. Trouble is, how do you know a rifle is behaving right if you don't shoot large round count groups?

Smaller round groups for testing the precision of semis, particularly piston bangers, and rifles that are not well tuned in general does not work well. It is really easy to get the odd 3 rnd group that is nice, and assume that the other bad groups are a shooter problem, or a load problem, when in reality, it is a rifle problem.

I have seen many m14s, XCRs, and similar rifles shoot the odd nice 3 shot, then the other 2 out of the mag go haywire. Or 5 shots group well, but aren't near the established point of aim. This usually sorts itself out with a couple of honest 10 shot groups though.

Here are two links that speak to why.

The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844909#Post1844909

BTW, what you have above is great. Nice to see that it is centered on the target as well. Should have put the one on the top right a little higher for the frowny face ;)
 
carbonrod said:
The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

QUOTE]

Were you at the range yesterday (or any other day) with me....... Cause that sounds like something I may have or may not have done :D

I understand the reasoning behind the '10 shot group', but I just don't really belive it has any bearing when doing a new 'ammo' or new 'load' test..... I do shoot the odd 10 shot group..... You will notice this is the first one I have ever posted :rolleyes: I have never had a 'good' 10 shot group up till this time (exluding pistols from a ransom rest), for this reason I never post them :cool:

Thanks for all of the feedback fellas!

Cheers!
Click to expand...
 
I will shoot 5 or 10 shot groups...................Mostly 5 shot groups when testing load changes...............the I shoot 10 shot groups with the most promising 2 loads..............

My last testing session to verify my load changes was a 5 shot, 1.047" group shot at 300 meters off of a Bipod. The 5th shot I pulled a little low..............otherwise the first 4 shots measured 0.572' @ 300 meters.........:D

For those that want to know, I use:

- .308 Hornady 178gr AMAX Moly Coated Bullets
- Norma Match Cases
- Federal 210M primers
- Varget Powder

I practice 10 shot groups quite a bit as the matches I shoot require 10 round strings..............and are timed..........
 
Test the rifle as you are going to USE the rifle.

For a hunting rifle, I only care about the 1st cold bore shot. I want it dead on at any distance I am going to engage. A couple more follow up shots can be useful so I test with 3 or 4rds groups.

If I need a mag change(my rifles are 3+1 usually), things have gone horribly wrong and I have got much bigger issues to deal with.

For F class, I can shoot as many as 20rds at distance. On the 20th rd, that load better have the ability to hit that V bull. I also test under the time frames of the match

Then there is everything else in between.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Test the rifle as you are going to USE the rifle.

For a hunting rifle, I only care about the 1st cold bore shot. I want it dead on at any distance I am going to engage. A couple more follow up shots can be useful so I test with 3 or 4rds groups.

If I need a mag change(my rifles are 3+1 usually), things have gone horribly wrong and I have got much bigger issues to deal with.

For F class, I can shoot as many as 20rds at distance. On the 20th rd, that load better have the ability to hit that V bull. I also test under the time frames of the match

Then there is everything else in between.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry,
are you saying my proposed ban of pictures with groups under 5 shots in the precision rifle forum holds no weight? :D
 
I Just got to thinking on this one...............
Maybe it is just a brain fart.

How about one shot groups...................
over 5 separate bulls eyes( or 7 or 10) , then superimpose the bulls eyes over each other to see what kinda group a person gets. Boy would this ever show a shooters ability, new target each time. Theoretically it is the same, i think.

Last time I hunted, the deer didn't stand still enough for even a 3 shot group on it,lol.
 
warrenb said:
Jerry,
are you saying my proposed ban of pictures with groups under 5 shots in the precision rifle forum holds no weight? :D
Click to expand...

I am sure you have seen enough times that the answer is almost always

" IT DEPENDS"

A Sniper rifle drilling dead center at 5 distances from 200 to 1000yds with only the cold bore shot is one of the highest forms of precision AND accuracy. Not to mention good driving.

A SR BR rig putting 5 - 5 rds groups into something only a microscope can measure is skill and gear at the highest levels too.

So where do you draw the line?

Both at the very pinnacle of their discipline but so vastly different.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Test the rifle as you are going to USE the rifle.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

How you test your rifle should be relevant to how the rifle is to be used. But that is not at all the same thing as the testing being the same "course of fire".

Say a cold bore shot is important to you. The thing is, one cold bore shot by itself tells you nothing at all about the grouping ability of the rifle - it can't, it will always have a group size of zero. In fact testing the cold bore grouping ability of a rifle is a very demanding test regime - you need to get several cold bore shots made, so that you have a group to analyze. To get five or ten shots might take you hours or even days. So even though your use of the rifle might involve a single shot fired from a cold bore, the testing behind setting up your rifle to do that job well will be something quite different from going out and firing one single shot from a cold bore.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
I disagree.

How you test your rifle should be relevant to how the rifle is to be used. But that is not at all the same thing as the testing being the same "course of fire".

Say a cold bore shot is important to you. The thing is, one cold bore shot by itself tells you nothing at all about the grouping ability of the rifle - it can't, it will always have a group size of zero. In fact testing the cold bore grouping ability of a rifle is a very demanding test regime - you need to get several cold bore shots made, so that you have a group to analyze. To get five or ten shots might take you hours or even days. So even though your use of the rifle might involve a single shot fired from a cold bore, the testing behind setting up your rifle to do that job well will be something quite different from going out and firing one single shot from a cold bore.
Click to expand...


Well lets see, you get up at dawn each morning, wipe the sleep out of your eyes, then before the sun creeps up over the horizon and the wind begins to stir, you go out and fire 1 round at a 300 yard target, which will surely endear you to family and neighbors. Repeat daily for 30 days (weather permitting). Although you will have fewer friends by the end of the test, you will have a pretty good representation of what your rifle will do with a cold bore shot, on demand under ideal conditions. I keep threatening to try it, but thus far I haven't.
 
Boomer, you've got it.

Another thing to do though is to see whether or not your rifle's cold bore shot goes into the same group as the rest of the shots. If so, life is made a whole lot simpler (!). With a good match grade barrel on a well-built rifle, this is a pretty straightforward achievement.
 
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