1000-yard load question with 155gr scenar-L .308 WIN

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luckey

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Hi,

I know from the title, this looks like belongs to reloading section, but my situation is a little different, and the focus is for a 1000-yard steel match that I signed up on an impulse. so, I hope the guru here could help out. ;)

I am working on a load for my little 18" ruger american predator to reach 1000 yard, meaning velocity range between 2850-2900fps. I know it's REALLY pushing the limit of this little gun, but still would like to try.

With 155gr scenar-L and varget, I have been doing testing with 0.2gr increment and 0.01 inch OAL and Ogive combinations for a few weeks. Right now, with 47gr varget(max as per hodgdon site), and OAL 2.785"(longest OAL in my gun that still allows ammo to be chambered smoothly), I got 2800fps. No pressure sign at all.

I know there is no really fixed answer to my following question as every gun is different and I have to experiment myself for sure, but still want to ask to get a reference point. Has anyone use this bullet with such short OAL and powder change beyond 47gr? All the posts I got online from everywhere were longer than 2.8" with proper tactical gun and longer barrel. so, I guess I am a weirdo on this one. :p

Thanks in advance for any comments! And please go easy on the newbie. :p
 
Yes, at least you admit to your weirdness.

The 155gr .308 bullets are optimized to stay supersonic beyond 1000yds. The Palma Match is specifically a long range shoot at 800, 900 and 1000. It makes no sense to have a bullet that goes wonky in the middle of the match as the shooters go back. Sierra was first, and others have followed. You have the right bullet.

I can't comment on your load or OAL, except to say I know Varget has a good reputation with the long range shooters. You might just have found the practical limits of your rifle.
 
Be tough to do with the parameters you have given. I shoot a 24" barrel 208, factory Hornady 155 grain A max Palma Match and get 2847, they claim 2850 so I am happy. It works well to 1000 metres, but that is the farthest I have shot it.
 
Not sure if this will help you but you can try "soft seating" your bullets and MAYBE get your OAL out a bit longer. David Tubb soft seats his loads and gets great results. Read up on SOFT SEATING then read it twice more to be sure you understand all that is involved. It's not difficult but you CANNOT start with your current load. You'd have to work up your load again to be safe. I shoot to 1000 with Lapua Scenars (original & "L" type) and use Varget but I have a much longer barrel (30") and use slightly less than 46 gr to get a bit over 3000. Personally, I doubt it is doable with an 18" barrel using a safe load. I think most people try to get 2900-2950 with 155's to remain stable at 1000. Best of luck.
 
Thanks everyone for the comments. I know it's a challenge. Definitely will check out big boar's idea on "soft seating".
Also, along the same line, one other thing on the OAL. when I reach the 47gr varget, I tried the OAL from 2.845" all the way down to 2.755"(0.01" decrease). the best velocity @ 2800 was 2.845" and 2.805" with SD @ 11 & 4.4. Ideally I could just add more powder to increase the velocity given the extra space in the case I am loading long. The problem was that at these two length(down to 2.795"), the bullet is front heavy and caused chambering problem as the tip of the bullet hit the throat(I had to use a finger to push down the butt of the bullet and then push the bolt to chamber the round). Not sure if there is a way to fix that as I lost as much as 0.06" space(the good chambering length is 2.785") for extra powder.
maybe I should try to switch to a heavier brass because right now I am using the hirtenberger surplus brass, maybe I should try lapua which is heavier. of course, that means I have to start low and do it over again. was trying to go cheap. guess not so easy.
 
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Thanks Crashman. A friend of mine who attends 1000-yard steel match every year and has a 24" too. He told me with his velocity @ 2839, he can reach 1000 without issues. along with what you said, it does give me hope because Scenar/Scenar-L bullets have better BC than A-MAX bullets. Close comparisons with Scenar are Sierra Matchking or Hornady ELD Match/ELD-X

Crashman said:
Be tough to do with the parameters you have given. I shoot a 24" barrel 208, factory Hornady 155 grain A max Palma Match and get 2847, they claim 2850 so I am happy. It works well to 1000 metres, but that is the farthest I have shot it.
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luckey said:
Thanks Crashman. A friend of mine who attends 1000-yard steel match every year and has a 24" too. He told me with his velocity @ 2839, he can reach 1000 without issues. along with what you said, it does give me hope because Scenar/Scenar-L bullets have better BC than A-MAX bullets. Close comparisons with Scenar are Sierra Matchking or Hornady ELD Match/ELD-X
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I shoot the Scenario L in my 260 and it is definitely a surperior bullet in that caliber when compared to the Amax. I think you have the reloading side covered, you just need a longer barrel to get the velocity. I understand some people shoot Palma brass with the small rifle primers and this allows them to step on the gas more, I have no experience with this and it makes nervous because each load is essentially an over pressure load. Tread very lightly if you go there.
 
2800 is sufficient velocity with that bullet to shoot 1000 yards.

But accuracy might be better at 2850 or 2775. Only way to find out is to shoot some groups at a longer range than 100 yds. 300 is ok. 500 or 600 is better.

If you want better accuracy, use better brass. Lapua is the better.

I don't understand the feed problem. Can you not just stick the round into the chamber and close the bolt?

Try seating the bullet 25 thou deeper, then try 47.0, 47.2 & 27.4 gr. Stop if you see any sign of pressure.
 
Thanks Ganderite! My current plan is to go back 2.842"(ogive 2.243) and give another try on 47.2, 47.4 etc. even though the fast loading feed issue only gone at 2.785.

I do want to get into 2850-2900 for a more stable load @ 1000 yards. otherwise, I would have stopped @ 2800 because at that speed, I have a load with SD only @ 4.4 which is an amazing load(will keep it for shorter ranger for sure).

for brass, I think I will try Lapua as well, maybe some FC because they seems to give out more velocity(thicker brass) in the same range as well, just don't have enough for the match(don't want to buy again as bought lots of stuff lately. wallet is hurting... :( ).

the feed problem, as I used a flashlight shot into the chamber while I was loading a dummy round, I could see if the cartridge is too long(longer than 2.785"), AND if I worked the bolt too fast, the tip of the bullet will hit just below the throat at which point I had to tap the bullet at the butt to have it chambered. If I worked the bolt in a slower and smooth motion, I can have the cartridge as long as 2.84" without any issue. I think it's either the bolt or the magazine has some play which caused the bullet tip to dip if I push the bolt too fast.

The reason I have to use magazines is that in the coming steel match, each stage is timed(90 seconds) and mandatory mag change is part of the game. So, I need to practice that as well.

since it's steel match(I think target is about 3 moa'ish), so accuracy wise, brass probably won't be as big impact as wind, timed stage and awkward shooting positions.


Ganderite said:
2800 is sufficient velocity with that bullet to shoot 1000 yards.

But accuracy might be better at 2850 or 2775. Only way to find out is to shoot some groups at a longer range than 100 yds. 300 is ok. 500 or 600 is better.

If you want better accuracy, use better brass. Lapua is the better.

I don't understand the feed problem. Can you not just stick the round into the chamber and close the bolt?

Try seating the bullet 25 thou deeper, then try 47.0, 47.2 & 27.4 gr. Stop if you see any sign of pressure.
Click to expand...
 
luckey said:
Thanks Ganderite! My current plan is to go back 2.842"(ogive 2.243) and give another try on 47.2, 47.4 etc. even though the fast loading feed issue only gone at 2.785.

I do want to get into 2850-2900 for a more stable load @ 1000 yards. otherwise, I would have stopped @ 2800 because at that speed, I have a load with SD only @ 4.4 which is an amazing load(will keep it for shorter ranger for sure).

for brass, I think I will try Lapua as well, maybe some FC because they seems to give out more velocity(thicker brass) in the same range as well, just don't have enough for the match(don't want to buy again as bought lots of stuff lately. wallet is hurting... :( ).
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More stable at 1000 yds. I don't understand this comment. If the bullet is stable at 100 yards - it will be stable at all distances. It actually gains stability as it goes down range.

FC brass for higher velocity. If you want more velocity, you need more powder. You can use more powder if you use lighter brass (not heavier) brass. Light commercial brass should permit about 2 gr more powder than a heavier military case. Weight your Hirtenberger cases and a commercial case.

I used to use Winchester cases in 308 because they were the lightest (had the most internal volume.)

SD of 4.4 is amazing. SDs don't win matches. Small groups do. The only proof of the load is the long range group. A low SD is nice, but it has to group in your rifle. If your rifle has a short, heavy barrels, harmonics are less of an issue. If I had a 4.4 SD laod, i would shoot it for group at a longer range, and try plus or minus 0.3 gr, and see what shot best.
 
Thanks again Ganderite! for the "stable". It's for the light bullet like this to beat the wind. I read that it's better to stay supersonic all the way which entails muzzle velocity at least to be 2850fps.
For brass, I think you are most likely right. When I said to use FC/Lupua vs Hirtenberger, I was based on my past data, at given range(not hot load at all), Lupua always gives out higher velocities than hirtenberger in general, likely due to the small case volume, higher pressure at that range. However, in this case, it's extremely likely case volume is more important because when yesterday I shrank the cartridge from 2.845" down to 2.755", the pressure and velocity actually went down, from 2800 to at low as 2770, and then back to 2790. This is why I said earlier to back out to 2.845" to get more powder in. I did weight some brasses. winchester and hirtenberger are pretty much the same and the lightest, then FC/Lupua, the heaviest are Aguila/LC. since I have plenty hirtenberger, I will stick with it for now.
It's a very interesting and fun experiment with this little gun so far. fingers crossed! Will report back.


Ganderite said:
More stable at 1000 yds. I don't understand this comment. If the bullet is stable at 100 yards - it will be stable at all distances. It actually gains stability as it goes down range.

FC brass for higher velocity. If you want more velocity, you need more powder. You can use more powder if you use lighter brass (not heavier) brass. Light commercial brass should permit about 2 gr more powder than a heavier military case. Weight your Hirtenberger cases and a commercial case.

I used to use Winchester cases in 308 because they were the lightest (had the most internal volume.)
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"supersonic all the way which entails muzzle velocity at least to be 2850fps"

I have tested the original Sierra 155 at 1000 yds at 2800fps. It was still supersonic at 1,000. (Summer temps, 700 ASL)

The Lapua bullet has a better BC, so you have enough velocity.

So try to test accuracy, with minor tweaks.
 
I just realized I have been targeting 1000 meters (1093.61 yards). So, with 2850fps, it would give me 1125fps @ 1000 meter(which reminds me to ask the match master about the max distance in this match). If it's 1000 yard only, 2800 will easily give me 1207fps which is good enough. no wonder my friend said his 2839fps was good enough for him in the match. things suddenly look up. :p ;)

Now I think, as you said, I will try to fine tune the 2.805" node as it had lowest SD @ 4.4fps with 2800fps. REALLY appreciated all the suggestions!


How did you test the speed @ 1000 yards? I only have lab radar for muzzle velocity and rely on calculator for destination speed.

Ganderite said:
"supersonic all the way which entails muzzle velocity at least to be 2850fps"

I have tested the original Sierra 155 at 1000 yds at 2800fps. It was still supersonic at 1,000. (Summer temps, 700 ASL)

The Lapua bullet has a better BC, so you have enough velocity.

So try to test accuracy, with minor tweaks.
Click to expand...
 
How did you test the speed @ 1000 yards? I only have lab radar for muzzle velocity and rely on calculator for destination speed.
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A ballistic calc should give you a pretty good idea of the speed. You could also place your labradar behind the target berm and aim it at the point of impact on the rear berm, and get one of the target pullers to turn it on during your string...?
 
yes. that's what I measured as well as mentioned in my post above. hirt is pretty much the same weight as winchester. just weight is not as consistent. having said that, given it's everywhere for free and gives me half moa @ 200 yards with my little rifle, I can't complain. :)

walleyed99 said:
Just my findings, but my Hirt brass when I measured water volume I found I was only, .1or.2 gr different from winchester brass. I've been loading my Hirt to same specs without issue.
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luckey said:
I just realized I have been targeting 1000 meters (1093.61 yards). So, with 2850fps, it would give me 1125fps @ 1000 meter(which reminds me to ask the match master about the max distance in this match). If it's 1000 yard only, 2800 will easily give me 1207fps which is good enough. no wonder my friend said his 2839fps was good enough for him in the match. things suddenly look up. :p ;)

Now I think, as you said, I will try to fine tune the 2.805" node as it had lowest SD @ 4.4fps with 2800fps. REALLY appreciated all the suggestions!


How did you test the speed @ 1000 yards? I only have lab radar for muzzle velocity and rely on calculator for destination speed.
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It is very very easy. Just ask the target marker if the bullet was super sonic when it hit the target. A super bullet makes sonic boom (bang) when it passes by. A sub-sonic bullet is almost silent. Makes a little "phit" noise as it passes by.
 
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