- Location
- Okanagan Valley B.C.
100M/YD 22LR 10 rnd groups
- Thread starter emerson
- Start date
Any of the outlaw PRS rimfire matches I have been too, more than I can count, are 25 -100yards. Many have bonus stages that may stretch the boundary at 200 yards or more. The actual match will however be five stages of 25yards to a max of 100 yards. Give it a try, youll love it im sure
I think my club is on this wavelength already, and we have adjusted our target size for the concept you are recommending. We shoot for score at 50m with our club target that is fairly generous in ring size, in multiples of 5mm, and we score inside edge, which allows for quite alot of dispersion while still scoring high. The dispersion allowance is I think in line with what I see as average lot group sizes coming out of the Lapua and Eley test ranges, with a buffer added for windage for the real world.
X ring is 5mm, just shy of 5.56 bullet diam. With inside edge cut by bullet that X score allows for roughly 15mm diam on center to score an X.
10 ring is 15mm (5mm each side of 5mm X ring). 15mm is 0.6 inches, so in other words our 10 ring is just over 1MOA at 50/yds, which is quite generous. Inside edge allows for about 25mm, or 1 inch diameter on center to score a 10.
9 ring is 25mm (almost an inch)...etc.
Our 50m target is 25 individual bulls, one shot per bull. Max score = 250-25X.
Highest scores are typically are 248, 249, 250 (depending on wind) with alot of X's (10X to 15X are common), all using training grade ammo of SK, RWS, Eley.
Members are typically using Anschutz, CZ, Cooper, rifles, and any rifle/ammo/shooter combo can win any day. We see $700 CZ's beat $3000 Anschutz on any given day
Everyone experiences the inexplicable fliers from time to time. I have been competing in our weekly matches with a few boxes of Lapua Midas+ which I find is no better than my SK Biathlon and Rifle Match, and some days worse. The lot of Midas+ I have turned out to be a waste of money for my rifles, and I find the SK is just as good, if not better, and at less than half the price.
RE 100M: I am running our first "official" club 100m BR match in a couple weeks. Trying to build an interest for a regular match schedule. The 100m target I designed has 4 inch bulls: X half inch (half MOA), 10 ring 1 inch (1 MOA), 9 Ring 2 inch (2 MOA), etc. 5 shots each per 5 bulls. In practice I have been scoring in the 240's with alot of X's, so I think it is a fair target that will provide high success feedback to the shooters. Adjusting the target size scores to allow a perfect 250 possibility for any shooter with a high mag scope and rifle of say a CZ quality and up, gives shooters a great feeling, and hopefully attracts more shooters, especially youngsters.
Last edited:
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
You have a good format going.. I wish much success and many happy smiles.
If you start to see a good number of newbies and youngsters, consider a handicap score. That tries to equalise the score of gear and skill. When you have a match, have a gross and net score... for coffee and donuts.
I bet you see more participation from those who may be scared away by the 250 20X type scores
All the best...
Jerry
If you start to see a good number of newbies and youngsters, consider a handicap score. That tries to equalise the score of gear and skill. When you have a match, have a gross and net score... for coffee and donuts.
I bet you see more participation from those who may be scared away by the 250 20X type scores
All the best...
Jerry
Shooting 22 lr for group can be discouraging to some but in the same vein, testing ammo for group size is virtually the only way to score high.
Measuring a high score for group size is part of the challenge.
A 100-10X measured 0.602" c-c and a 100-9X measured 0.595".
These are results that would not be accomplished without testing. One five shot group hardly qualifies as testing.
Those participants lose interest very quickly.
Separating various levels of equipment helps the level of participation.
Target rifle with target sights has been abandoned even by those that won consistently.
Currently the club is divided into unlimited, sporting rifle, 17 HMR, semi-auto and precision rimfire.
Three relays of eight currently have 22 positions filled and requires a real push to get it done in 2.5 hours.
Next month will have 12 benches for a 1200 match and will have six hours of range time.
Measuring a high score for group size is part of the challenge.
A 100-10X measured 0.602" c-c and a 100-9X measured 0.595".
These are results that would not be accomplished without testing. One five shot group hardly qualifies as testing.
Those participants lose interest very quickly.
Separating various levels of equipment helps the level of participation.
Target rifle with target sights has been abandoned even by those that won consistently.
Currently the club is divided into unlimited, sporting rifle, 17 HMR, semi-auto and precision rimfire.
Three relays of eight currently have 22 positions filled and requires a real push to get it done in 2.5 hours.
Next month will have 12 benches for a 1200 match and will have six hours of range time.
Further to my previous post ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
There was a gentle breeze with a couple of puffs and changes and on the second page another 100, then a 96 and a 98.
I had lots of time and should have waited for a calm to return but with a 2" plus O-O I won't publish it.
Measuring single holes in the 0.21's so I don't mind someone or everyone using a .22"
So I was leading after the first four targets and ended up finishing 3rd, 3 points behind the leader.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...Aug_15(1).jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill
There was a gentle breeze with a couple of puffs and changes and on the second page another 100, then a 96 and a 98.
I had lots of time and should have waited for a calm to return but with a 2" plus O-O I won't publish it.
Measuring single holes in the 0.21's so I don't mind someone or everyone using a .22"
So I was leading after the first four targets and ended up finishing 3rd, 3 points behind the leader.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...Aug_15(1).jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill
Three things are absolutely indispensable with a .22LR rifle when seeking the smallest groups at 100 yards.
The first is a capable rifle. The second is very consistent shooting ammo with a small ES and SD. The third is either an absence of wind or air movement between the shooter and the target or very skillful use of wind flags.
The most difficult part of the three is the ammo. I have Midas + that will give smaller groups than the Center X ammo used on the target below, but it too frequently has rounds that deviate from where the majority of shots seem to be going.
As many readers are aware, but newer shooters may not appreciate, it's not the variety or brand of ammo that is important. It's the lot of the variety that's most important. A lot that doesn't shoot consistently is invariably not going to give the best results, no matter whether it's CX or the most expensive Lapua variety, X-Act.
Below is the best target I've had so far. It's with CX. But not all lots of CX will give results like those below.
For comparison, here's two targets shot with Lapua X-Act. The one on the left averaged 1.04", the one on the right 1.21". It's clear this lot of X-Act ammo shot less well than the lot of CX, even though it cost twice as much.
The first is a capable rifle. The second is very consistent shooting ammo with a small ES and SD. The third is either an absence of wind or air movement between the shooter and the target or very skillful use of wind flags.
The most difficult part of the three is the ammo. I have Midas + that will give smaller groups than the Center X ammo used on the target below, but it too frequently has rounds that deviate from where the majority of shots seem to be going.
As many readers are aware, but newer shooters may not appreciate, it's not the variety or brand of ammo that is important. It's the lot of the variety that's most important. A lot that doesn't shoot consistently is invariably not going to give the best results, no matter whether it's CX or the most expensive Lapua variety, X-Act.
Below is the best target I've had so far. It's with CX. But not all lots of CX will give results like those below.
For comparison, here's two targets shot with Lapua X-Act. The one on the left averaged 1.04", the one on the right 1.21". It's clear this lot of X-Act ammo shot less well than the lot of CX, even though it cost twice as much.
Very nice Glenn, all groups with Center-X sub 3/4"! I consider that approximate to 1/4" at 50 yards. Interesting the X-Act, I see mostly vertical spread. Since I don't think you're using a tuner on your rifle (at least what you pictured doesn't show one fitted), I wouldn't be too quick to say that's not a good lot of X-Act. Doesn't really suit your rifle naked barrel, sure, that's apparent. I think it would shoot with tighter vertical in another rifle or a tuned one. Still, like you say, and I experience with the ammo I currently have, It'll put a number of shots in a nice group but it's the random zingers that just spoil it all. Eley I find is the worst offender, the good rounds group real nice, then the flier is brutal.
Thanks, Myke. I think my rifle may be shooting better now than when I first got it nearly 51 weeks ago. It's giving me reason to try the same lot of Center X again at 50 in hopes it can do 1/4" consistently enough for the 1/4" Club.
As you surmised, I'm not using a tuner. I've tried tuning with a standard Harrell tuner and a lighter Starik tuner, but, despite testing with many bricks of ammo with each, I haven't had repeatable success. It was all very frustrating and discouraging. Many experienced shooters who use tuners report that the long, heavy 69cm Anschutz barrel doesn't respond well to tuners and that may well be true. Nevertheless, I'll be trying to find a tune with it again in the near future.
As you surmised, I'm not using a tuner. I've tried tuning with a standard Harrell tuner and a lighter Starik tuner, but, despite testing with many bricks of ammo with each, I haven't had repeatable success. It was all very frustrating and discouraging. Many experienced shooters who use tuners report that the long, heavy 69cm Anschutz barrel doesn't respond well to tuners and that may well be true. Nevertheless, I'll be trying to find a tune with it again in the near future.
Below is some information to help wind up the discussion about the subject of ten shot groups at 100 yards.
For those who wish a summarized version, see the last two sentences.
I shot a considerable number of targets with three ten-shot groups between August 4 and August 18 last month. Many of them were shot during days when the area in which I live experienced a rather prolonged period of very calm conditions, particularly in the mornings. When it became breezier, results were often much less consistent and predictable.
Over 53 targets with three ten-shot groups, shot with different lots of ammo but the same rifle, the overall average of all the targets was 0.985".
The majority of the targets were shot using two different lots of Lapua, 18 of them with the same lot of CX and 17 with the same lot of M+. These averaged, .933" and .952", respectively. I also used another lot of M+ that gave similar results over nine targets. Nine targets were shot with other lots of CX, M+, and even X-Act were used, but these did not perform as well, with each averaging a little over 1.20".
While the lot of CX with which I shot the most targets was the most consistent overall in terms of group sizes, one of the M+ lots produced the smallest groups, including sub-.5 MOA. But it's important to note that it wasn't always very consistent. It was not uncommon for it to produce groups that were twice the size of its best groups. In other words, a box of ammo from this lot could have ten consecutive rounds that were very consistent, it could easily have rounds that open up the group.
Clearly not all lots of the same variety of ammo produce similar results. The two lots of CX I shot were very different with the rifle I was using. I didn't shoot enough targets with some of the lots I used to draw firm conclusions, but it's obvious that the name on the box is not what determines performance.
Below are some images of ten-shot groups that were good, but they weren't as regularly achieved as might be wished. The outside-to-outside measurements are shown. They were with the same lot of M+ but not on the same three-group target. Keep in mind, this same lot produced groups that could be twice the size of the smallest. The good lot of CX I used tended to give groups that were more consistent in size, but not necessarily the smallest.
The holy grail of ammo would, of course, be a lot that was consistent enough to produce similar groups with all rounds in a box. But that would be too much to hope for. Those kinds of lots are few and very far between and I doubt they ever get to our shores.
There are several ingredients for good results and they are a good rifle/barrel, good ammo (it's not the brand or variety), and good conditions, which means an absence of air movement -- either that or skillful use of wind flags. I think if you get a lot that can produce consistent ten shot groups at 100 that are under 1" (i.e. most of them, not only a few), you will be doing well.
For those who wish a summarized version, see the last two sentences.
I shot a considerable number of targets with three ten-shot groups between August 4 and August 18 last month. Many of them were shot during days when the area in which I live experienced a rather prolonged period of very calm conditions, particularly in the mornings. When it became breezier, results were often much less consistent and predictable.
Over 53 targets with three ten-shot groups, shot with different lots of ammo but the same rifle, the overall average of all the targets was 0.985".
The majority of the targets were shot using two different lots of Lapua, 18 of them with the same lot of CX and 17 with the same lot of M+. These averaged, .933" and .952", respectively. I also used another lot of M+ that gave similar results over nine targets. Nine targets were shot with other lots of CX, M+, and even X-Act were used, but these did not perform as well, with each averaging a little over 1.20".
While the lot of CX with which I shot the most targets was the most consistent overall in terms of group sizes, one of the M+ lots produced the smallest groups, including sub-.5 MOA. But it's important to note that it wasn't always very consistent. It was not uncommon for it to produce groups that were twice the size of its best groups. In other words, a box of ammo from this lot could have ten consecutive rounds that were very consistent, it could easily have rounds that open up the group.
Clearly not all lots of the same variety of ammo produce similar results. The two lots of CX I shot were very different with the rifle I was using. I didn't shoot enough targets with some of the lots I used to draw firm conclusions, but it's obvious that the name on the box is not what determines performance.
Below are some images of ten-shot groups that were good, but they weren't as regularly achieved as might be wished. The outside-to-outside measurements are shown. They were with the same lot of M+ but not on the same three-group target. Keep in mind, this same lot produced groups that could be twice the size of the smallest. The good lot of CX I used tended to give groups that were more consistent in size, but not necessarily the smallest.
The holy grail of ammo would, of course, be a lot that was consistent enough to produce similar groups with all rounds in a box. But that would be too much to hope for. Those kinds of lots are few and very far between and I doubt they ever get to our shores.
There are several ingredients for good results and they are a good rifle/barrel, good ammo (it's not the brand or variety), and good conditions, which means an absence of air movement -- either that or skillful use of wind flags. I think if you get a lot that can produce consistent ten shot groups at 100 that are under 1" (i.e. most of them, not only a few), you will be doing well.
Good observations that are consistent with my own, Glenn. 20+ mph winds here this weekend and I was gone fishin' the previous two so it's been awhile since I've been to the range, haven't lost interest in this 100y shooting though.
