10mm Witness

350 Mag

350 Mag

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First of all the gun performs quite good with factory ammo I went through 3 boxes.

50 rounds of American Eagle(180 gr lead cast) went through without a hiccup.

100 rounds of UMC(180 FMJ) I had about 5 FTF,(most of which was when I was using 20# Wolf Spring) when I used the 18# I had no jams.

I did run through 50 rounds of reloads and this is where I had some problems.

First the load..

200gr Horn XTP
Federal Brass(I have Starline on the way)
11.3gr of Accurate#9
CCI 350
1.255 OAL
.420 Crimp using LEE Factory Crimp Die

I was using a Wolf 20# spring.

I found that I was getting a fair bit of powder residue(some of it unburnt). After about 5 shots I would have some built up in the chamber/barrel and it would start leaving small dents(like dimples) on my cases.

I cleaned out the fouling after 5 rounds and all the rounds fired off with no malfunctions.

My cases were coming out normal except for a slight flattening of the primer. There are no splits or any smoke around the primer. So I am assuming that the primer flattening is happening when the case is striking the breech face?

Is Accurate#9 a dirty powder?

Is the powder charge too light?

Or maybe not enough crimp?

I measured my chamber and it is on the sloppy side....(.430) is the measurement. Not sure what the SAAMI spec is for chamber sizes? I am guessing around .427?
 
I have been loading for the 10mm since 1987...

Your load of 11.3grs of AA#9 is fairly light for a 20lbs spring and could be part of you're ftf problem. I load 190gr Sierra FPJ bullets with 14.2grs AA#9 and CCI 350 primers and crimp with a Lee factory crimp die as well but I don't measure the crimp I just adjust the die 1 to 1 1/4 turns down after the die touches the case mouth.

An example of a top load is in Speer's #13 manual which gives a max load of 14grs AA#9 for 200gr jacketed bullets.

The best thing about AA#9 powder is that you run out of room in the 10mm case before you get to too high of pressures. I have very little fouling when I use this powder as well. The only reason that I don't use it much anymore is because I have found that Blue Dot and IMR800X give far better performance in the 10mm than AA#9.

I load all of my 200gr XTP's with the CCI 350 primers and 9.6grs IMR800X powder for an average of 1220fps in my stock 4.6" G20 barrel, 1260fps in my 5" KKM barrel, 1320fps in my 6" Barsto barreled Colt Delta Elite and 1410fps out of my 18.5" T/C Contender carbine.

I am using a 22lbs Wolff recoil spring in my G20 and a 24lbs spring in my Colt Delta Elite due to it's lighter slide weight.
 
Thanx for the reply...


Just to clarify...my reloads had NO FTF. Just burnt DIRTY and had slightly flattened primers and "dimples" on the case from unburnt powder.


I am only adjusting the LEE factory crimp die about 5/8 of a full turn(after it touches the case mouth)....maybe that is my problem....NOT enough crimp and not giving powder enough time to fully ignite?

I just measured the factory ammo and duplicated it....(.420) crimp.

I have 2.5 pounds of AA#9 left and from what I am hearing and reading I think your right....I will be looking into some 800X very soon.

I am gonna wait for the Starline brass and experiment with some more crimp and slowly increase the load...

Did Gunnar do the Barsto Barrel on you Delta?
 
Joe Dlask @ Dlask Arms did my Barsto barrel back in the very early 1990's and I purchased my drop in 5" KKM barrel for my G20 direct from KKM a couple of years ago.
 
lighter loads will burn more completely in 10mm with a tighter crimp... but...

primers also get flattend with too light of a load, basically the case is not forced back against the breech face fast enough and the primer expands out to fill the gap, main spike of preasure is reached after the primer moves and the case backs up to the breach face, flattening the primer - flat primer but due to a light load.

personally I'd up the charge a bit before increasing the crimp, as too tight of a crimp and you can get headspacing issues that could result in 'bullet-pinch' which is very very dangerous, too much powder will start to give you distinct signs before it becomes dangerous... cratered primers, swollen cases, battering frames, shiny rub marks on the brass, poor extraction, broken extractors etc.

basically over preassure is more forgivng than over crimping on a case mouth head-spaced cartridge

hopefully that is understandable ... long day in the hot sun shooting, brain is a bit fuzzy...wuzzy ... was a bear, eih - I - eih, I - OOOO!

/crash
 
Thamok said:
lighter loads will burn more completely in 10mm with a tighter crimp... but...

primers also get flattend with too light of a load, basically the case is not forced back against the breech face fast enough and the primer expands out to fill the gap, main spike of preasure is reached after the primer moves and the case backs up to the breach face, flattening the primer - flat primer but due to a light load.

personally I'd up the charge a bit before increasing the crimp, as too tight of a crimp and you can get headspacing issues that could result in 'bullet-pinch' which is very very dangerous, too much powder will start to give you distinct signs before it becomes dangerous... cratered primers, swollen cases, battering frames, shiny rub marks on the brass, poor extraction, broken extractors etc.

basically over preassure is more forgivng than over crimping on a case mouth head-spaced cartridge

hopefully that is understandable ... long day in the hot sun shooting, brain is a bit fuzzy...wuzzy ... was a bear, eih - I - eih, I - OOOO!

/crash
Click to expand...

Interesting INFO...

I am gonna try some increase in powder. My Starline will hopefully be here soon.

Alot of guys recommend Magnum primers for AA#9 so I think I will stick with them.

I am also gonna pick up some 800X as it seems it is a highly recommended powder for the 10.
 
Update....

I upped the charge to 11.7 and did 30 rounds.

It is still leaving unburnt powder but no excessive case buldging and primer hasn't gotten any flatter. So I will continue on gradually increasing charge until I see any other pressure signs.

One thing I am going to have to do is get myself a Dremel and chamfer the edges of the chamber and polish feed ramp as some of my bullets are getting dinged when chambering.

Thanx for the help guys. I am sure once I get to a certain level of powder it will begin to fully ignite.

I fired some factory ammo today with no hiccups. But did notice it is VERY tame when compared to the reloads and I am not even at maximum yet...:eek:
 
CCI 350 primers are the recommended primers for 10mm.

These are the primers that Double Tap Ammo (one of the ultimate 10mm guru's) in the States recommends.

I used to use Win LP/magnum primers but found that the cup metal was very hard resulting in failure to fire problems. When I switched over to the CCI 350's I have not had any further problems.
 
I see that you are going to get IMR 800X powder. If you do be extremely careful when you are approaching top loads. They can jump in pressure very quickly.

I actually weigh ever top 800X load and do not trust my powder measure to throw consistant weights. I even installed a baffle into my RCBS powder measure to try and get more consistant loads but ended up using it to only get close then finishing it off with weighing every one.

For ease of use AA #9 is an excellent powder, Blue Dot is also an excellent powder and gives higher velocities than AA #9 but IMR 800X even though it is harder to work with produces the highest velocities with the lowest pressure.

I reserve my 800X loads for my bush carry loads, I practice with them but only enough to stay proficient with them. Most of my top practice loads are AA #9 and Blue Dot loads.
 
Just a little update...


I am up to 12.7 gr of AA#9 now.

No pressure signs other than the flattened primer that I have had right from the get/go.

I am still getting some unburnt powder but it is improving.

I am going to keep loading up in .1 gr increments.

Just a couple of notes...

I am finding this bullet/powder combination is producing some pretty good accuracy IMHO. :D

Only 2 out of 40 rounds jammed this time. They are hanging up in the same place. Right at the top of the chamber. I have allready chamfered/beveled and polished the chamber but obviously it needs just a little more relieving.

I am going to invest in cronograph to ...after hunting season.
 
When you state that the 2 jams are hanging up, are you meaning that the tip of the bullet is facing up towards the top of the chamber and the rear of the bullet is facing down towards the mag like a stove pipe jam?

I used to have this problem in my Colt occasionally.

If so have you done anything with the mag's or recoil springs?

I have installed Wolff Springs http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html in both of my Colt Delta Elite and my G20 10mm mag's. Actually I changed all the springs in both guns.

With standard/stock weight recoil springs the light slide of my Colt 1911 would move way to fast, not allowing the next bullet in the mag to pop up to it's correct position fast enough resulting in a stove piping jam.

As I stated earlier I am using a 22lbs recoil springs in my G20 and 24lbs in my Colt. I went with the +10lbs extra power mag springs.
 
Yes they are "stovepiping". This is most likely the bullet or mag spring that is causing this as the chamber mouth is well chamfered and polished.

I have tried 18, 20, 22 lb springs from Wolf and it still happens.

I am starting to think it is the mag springs.

It is worse when they are only 1 or 2 rounds left in the mag and doesn't happen very much when mags are full.

I was at range this morning and was still getting unburnt powder at 13.7 gr.

There are still no pressure signs other than the original flat primer....so I will continue to load up in .1 gr increments.

I think I will be happy when I get kinks worked out the accuracy looks like it will be good to me...

This is 30 rounds I fired today ranging from 12.8 gr to 13.7 gr of AA#9.

25 yards no rest.

428106.jpg
 
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I use 200gr MG's a lot in my practice loads (40 S&W velocity 900fps to 950fps) which I load with 5grs to 5.5grs Tite-Group powder and #350 CCI primers.

I personally don't think that you're jams have anything to do with the XTP's that you are loading. I have the same reliability with top loaded MG's as I do with top loaded XTP's.

You're comment "It is worse when they are only 1 or 2 rounds left in the mag and doesn't happen very much when mags are full" makes me think that it is your mag springs even more now.

Good luck and nice group......
 
Camp Cook said:
I use 200gr MG's a lot in my practice loads (40 S&W velocity 900fps to 950fps) which I load with 5grs to 5.5grs Tite-Group powder and #350 CCI primers.

I personally don't think that you're jams have anything to do with the XTP's that you are loading. I have the same reliability with top loaded MG's as I do with top loaded XTP's.

You're comment "It is worse when they are only 1 or 2 rounds left in the mag and doesn't happen very much when mags are full" makes me think that it is your mag springs even more now.

Good luck and nice group......
Click to expand...

You maybe right...

I remember when I first got it that the American Eagle 180Gr Lead bullets ran through it without any hiccups and that was before I had polished the feedramp and throated the chamber.

I think the increased power of the reloads is increasing slide velocity...thus with slightly weak magazine springs the rounds aren't popping out of the magazine quick enough thus the stovepiping.

I have 1 Wolf +10% Magazine spring that I am going to try out. If it cures the FTF I will order some more or maybe +5%.

Thanx for the help.
 
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Update!

:beerchug:

Got my 800X and loaded up some loads:

200gr XTP
7.1-8.0 gr of 800X
CCI-300 prm
1.250 OAL
Lee Factory Crimp .420
Starline Brass

I have also:

Cut down my ejector.(I took alot off )

Polished Breech face.

Installed +10% Mag springs

Polished the extractor.

It will now feed empty cases when dropping the slide now almost all the time.


Went to the range.

Had no more flattened primers from 7.1-8.0 grains.:)

Only had 2 FTF(out of 50 rounds) and that was with only 2 rounds left in magazine. When the mag is full it feeds great probably due to more pressure on the spring.

The nose of my XTP's are no longer getting beat up.

The ejected brass now all ends up right in front of me about 4 feet away. Before the brass was bouncing off of lane barrier and still ending up all over the place and very far away.

No more unburnt powder issues thanx to the 800X.(but it is a terrible powder for measuring)


When I got home I did a little more polishing on the breech face to get it really slick and shiny. I hope it will just about eliminate all the FTF.

Will be back at range tommorow but I am not going to load any higher until I get a Chronograph(which is on its way).

Just want to eliminate the FTF completey then worry about getting to the right amount of 800X.

Thanx to all for the help....
 
Finally got out to the range with the new chrony.

It worked well but I found I had to put it about 15 feet out so MUZZLE blast would not read....had a coulple of readings around 2200fps would be a nice veloctiy though for a 200 gr XTP out of a 10mm :blink:

These were all individually thrown charges then trickled off to get exact measurement.

Anyone trusting 800X through a meter and not weighing every single charge is asking for SERIOUS trouble......some of my thrown charges were 1 gr more than the average!!

Anyways here we go.

Witness 10mm Steel Fullsize(factory barrel)
Starline brass(new)
200 gr XTP
Imr 800X
1.258 OAL
CCI350(MAGNUM PRIMERS)
Lee Factory Crimp die(light crimp 1/2 turn)
43 degrees cold and windy.

8.8 1168(HI) 1103(LOW) 1132(avg)

8.9 1196 1119 1142

9.1 1174 1145 1160

9.3 1189 1149 1163

9.4 1203 1158 1173

9.5 1218 1182 1200

9.6 1228 1181 1210

None of the cases had any flattened primers. No excessive bulging either. I may try a .1 or .2 gr more but my absolute max will be 9.8. As stated before Mcnett's 10.0 gr load was in excess of SAAMI max and I will not even try it.

I fired off a total of 50 shots most grouped in about 3 inch circle 2 inchs above Point of Aim.

Still have a few FTF but this has greatly improved with tweaking of magazine mouth.


Witness 10mm Steel Fullsize(factory barrel)
Starline brass(new)
200 gr Montana Gold CMJ(complete metel jacket)
Imr 800X
CCI350(MAGNUM PRIMERS)
1.258 OAL
Lee Factory Crimp die(light crimp 1/2 turn)

I started this load off at 8.0 gr. but never chronoed it until 9.6.

9.6 1180(HI) 1173(LOW) 1178(AVG)

9.7 1225 1179 1203

9.8 1233 1183 1208

I had better cycling with this bullet and once again no flattened primers or excessively buldged cases. I may try 10.0 gr in this bullet because quite a bit shorter than the XTP.

This is my first experience with Montana Gold and they seemed to work fine at near maximum loads. Accuracy and grouping was much the same as the XTP.

I thought I might get a little better velocity than these numbers because I think the stock barrel on a Witness is actually 4.75 inchs which is slightly longer than on the Glock 20 factory barrel.

The lack of performance was probably due to colder temperatures?
 
Went to the range today...

100 rounds....

3 FTE, and about 4 FTF.

I am going to back off the 9.6 grain load. The primers are ok, brass is expanded fully but not buldged.

But...there is a sharp edge where extractor is clawing at the brass and the FTE would seem to suggest this is just a little too hot.

GREAT load to shoot.....and groups really nice. XTP seems to be a very accurate bullet for me.

This group was shot at about 10 yards standing. 2 Ten rounders.

435660.jpg
 
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