11 10 shot group challenge

Vic777

Vic777

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here is the challenge ....
shoot 10 shots at a target 25yds. away.
with a "defense" handgun, i.e no .22lr cal or Pardini's etc.
let's say 9mm and larger caliber
do this standing 2 handed (or one handed) no "supports" allowed.
do this 11 times.
this gives you 11 10 shot groups at 25yds.
what is your 6th best group?
i.e. lets say your 11 groups are ... in inches ...

10, 8, 8, 4, 6, 8, 6, 5, 11, 4.5, 6.6

your 6th best group is then ... 6.6 inches

what handgun, caliber, action are you most "accurate" with

also, the 10 shots must be fired in 2.5 minutes or less

Why? You ask.

I am trying to find a handgun I can shoot 4.5inch 10 shot groups at 25yds. 50% of the time. (9mm or larger caliber) I would like to be able to do this with SIG 220 DAK, can anyone shoot 4.5 inch 10 shot groups with the SIG 220 DAK from 25yds. 50% of the time?
 
I'll get back to you in 11 weeks... Have to do it as the "fresh" target each time to ensure that its a fair measure of group size....

:)

Double action only firearms will make this less likely to be achieved as they are always going to be more difficult to fire accurately and consistently than Single action.
 
4string said:
4.5 " with no support at 25 yards that may be tough. I know I can't do it.
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Big WUSS.....never say I can't. Think...... I think I can, I think I can, I think I can give it a try at least! It may be tough, but I know you can try!
 
Rapt said:
Double action only firearms will make this less likely to be achieved as they are always going to be more difficult to fire accurately and consistently than Single action.
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not true, DA guns actually provide a much better trigger pull for accurate shooting than most SA guns. you get a much smoother trigger pull with a consistent motion. why do you think PPC guys don't #### the hammer on their revolvers when they shoot? especially at 50m.
 
not true, DA guns actually provide a much better trigger pull for accurate shooting than most SA guns. you get a much smoother trigger pull with a consistent motion. why do you think PPC guys don't #### the hammer on their revolvers when they shoot? especially at 50m.[/QUOTE]

And because the double action has been tuned and tricked out. Smooth and light almost till the end of the pull(6 lbs.), then the over travel screw stops the trigger before the final let off. Then it's just a pound of pressure on the trigger, compressing the rubber tip on the over travel screw before it fires. Most PPC revolvers have the hammers bobed so there is no single action, double action only and the accuracy of some of these shooters is awesome.
 
even a non tuned DA gives consistent pulls. True rough triggers suck, but that goes for SA too. I've shot 3 inch groups at 30yds with an RCMP 5946, witnessed.
 
Slavex said:
even a non tuned DA gives consistent pulls. True rough triggers suck, but that goes for SA too. I've shot 3 inch groups at 30yds with an RCMP 5946, witnessed.
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Very true, Smith & Wesson double action are famous for their consistent trigger pull. Even my old model 59 double action pistol has a good double action pull.

Anyway, I'm in for the trying the 11 targets off hand to see what my average is.
 
Slavex said:
even a non tuned DA gives consistent pulls. True rough triggers suck, but that goes for SA too. I've shot 3 inch groups at 30yds with an RCMP 5946, witnessed.
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I have also had the oportunity to fire the RCMP 5946 and it had a very consistent trigger pull right from the intitial squeeze until the bang.. The 5946 has been one of the most accurate and comfortable DA pistols I have fired until this point.. I know I may be hasstled for this by the die hard Glock guys and gals but by far does the 5946 out preform the Glocks in terms of trigger pull and comfort..

(keep in mind that if ever you fire one of these guns they are not oiled in the slightest) that is what I was told by a member don't know if they are spicifically told that? (anyone know?)
 
DanTorz said:
I have also had the oportunity to fire the RCMP 5946 and it had a very consistent trigger pull right from the intitial squeeze until the bang.. The 5946 has been one of the most accurate and comfortable DA pistols I have fired until this point.. I know I may be hasstled for this by the die hard Glock guys and gals but by far does the 5946 out preform the Glocks in terms of trigger pull and comfort..

(keep in mind that if ever you fire one of these guns they are not oiled in the slightest) that is what I was told by a member don't know if they are spicifically told that? (anyone know?)
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They are supposed to be oiled :) at least that's what cadets are taught during their firearms training block at DEPOT. Whether they remember to do it once they're posted, now that's a different story.

Mark
 
Vic777 said:
here is the challenge ....
shoot 10 shots at a target 25yds. away.
with a "defense" handgun, i.e no .22lr cal or Pardini's etc.
let's say 9mm and larger caliber
do this standing 2 handed (or one handed) no "supports" allowed.
do this 11 times.
this gives you 11 10 shot groups at 25yds.
what is your 6th best group?
i.e. lets say your 11 groups are ... in inches ...

10, 8, 8, 4, 6, 8, 6, 5, 11, 4.5, 6.6

your 6th best group is then ... 6.6 inches

what handgun, caliber, action are you most "accurate" with

also, the 10 shots must be fired in 2.5 minutes or less

Why? You ask.

I am trying to find a handgun I can shoot 4.5inch 10 shot groups at 25yds. 50% of the time. (9mm or larger caliber) I would like to be able to do this with SIG 220 DAK, can anyone shoot 4.5 inch 10 shot groups with the SIG 220 DAK from 25yds. 50% of the time?
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Are you asking people how good "THEY" shoot or how good the "GUNS" shoot? A good shooter with a good gun will have no problem doing what you ask and achieving very good groups... consitantly. A poor shooter will not be able to do well (consitantly) even with the best gun. Just because someone doesn't produce good tight groups when they try your challenge doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the gun, it could be because the shooter doesn't have the skill or the ammunition doesn't have the capability to product the results you're looking for.

I have some S&W PPC-9's here that will shoot 1" groups (consistantly) at 25 yards... all day long. They will do this from a ransom rest AND they will have no problem producing 1" to 2" groups from off hand, standing unsupported if shot by an experienced, skilled shooter. Most top PPC shooters (GM and DM classifications) will be able to produce x-ring and 10 ring groups (2" to 4") groups standing unsupported at 25 yards under the slow fire conditions you've set out... top BULLSEYE shooters would have no problem doing it as well... the only stipulation being that the gun and ammo themselves are capable of that type of accuracy.

S&W guarantees the PPC-9s at 1" or less at 25 yards. I have one particular S&W PPC-9 sitting here that came with a test target from the factory that shows a 5 shot ONE-HOLE group at 25 yards (the hole is @ the size of a dime). SIG also makes very accurate guns... their MasterShop produces a number of accurized models which will also shoot 1" to 1.5" at 25 meters... some that will also shoot sub 1".

Truth is most shooters aren't going to be able to shoot as well as the gun itself... but it's hard to shoot "BETTER" than the gun and ammo are capable of shooting.

Keep in mind as well that ammo has a lot to do with this when you're trying to find that "BEST" group size. Top PPC shooters will spend a lot of time testing to find the best ammo for their gun... and each gun will have a specific ammo that it "LIKES" (does best with). Quite often different PPC-9's we get from S&W will "LIKE" different ammuntions and produce different results, even though the guns are built identically, some will prefer a heavier bullet and some a lighter bullet... some will like one brand of ammo better than another. No two guns are ever exactly the same.

The difference in groups sizes in my own PPC-9's can vary considerably depending on what ammo I put through them... and I'm talking in a Ransom rest, all other factors being the same. Some factory ammunitions will produce sub 1" (6 shot) groups and other factory ammunition will produce 3" groups... yet in a different PPC-9 that same ammunition could produce a 1" group. I've tested ammunition that couldn't produce a 6" group consistantly... so don't always assume it's the gun or the shooter... I've seen many people make that mistake as well.

One last point. Don't expect the low-end guns to produce great accuracy... that doesn't mean they can't... it just means that there's no guarantee. An out of the box, basic Glock, SIG, S&W, etc. that sells for $800 or $1,000 is a mass produced factory gun. It is built to certain tolerances and those tolerances vary... which means the accuracy of each gun varies. You could get one out-of-the-box Model 17 Glock that shoots 2" groups at 25 yards, yet the next serial number gun in that run might only shoot 6" groups. This is not uncommon. There's no way to know. When SIG, S&W (or whoever) produce a higher-end model one of the benefits you're getting is a "tighter" gun, with more attention to fit and detail and this will usually result in better accuracy. The PPC-9's and SIG X-6 PPC guns are built specifically to produce the tightest possible groups at 25 and 50 yards for PPC competition. They will shoot 1" 25 yard and 2" - 3" 50 yard groups... but you pay for that type of accuracy. Price on the PPC-9's is $2,000.00 and up... prices on the SIG X-6 setup for PPC are @ $3,500.00 to $4,000.00 I believe. Rock River Arms and a few other US companies make various 1911 style pistols for PPC competitors that will also shoot 1" and 2" groups and 25 yards... but you'll pay $3,000.00 to $4,500.00 for these guns.

The S&W 5946's that we import with the BarSto barrels... those guns will shoot 2" (or better ) groups at 25 yards. I know of a last one factory S&W5946 (with the factory barrel) that shoots sub 2" at 25 yards and I've seen the owner do it repeatedly:)

Just my 2 cents worth ;) Now that I look at how much I rambled on I guess you got 2 1/2 cents worth :redface:

Mark
 
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Questar(quote) that was too much to even quote!

This all for fun and it doesn't matter how good we are or what type equipment we're using. Lets just see what kind of groupings we get and post them on the thread.

My 2 1/2 cents worth is have people include the type of gun and ammo used. Let the games begin! Will post mine on Wednesday.
 
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Because of "zeroing" problems, I was not able to do this at 25yds, the shots were going off paper ... I think the sights are "not bad", I think I am "pulling" to the left.

I was "on" paper at 10yds. and my first attempt at this "challenge" resulted in a 10 shot group of 5 1/4 inches with 5 better 10 shot groups and 5 poorer 10 shot groups, so I feel I can say ....

"I can shoot a 10 shot group of 5 1/4" at 10 yds. with stock Glock 17 and
American Eagle 115g FMJ, I can do this 50% of the time standing 2 hands unsupported"

Once I get "sighted in", or stop pulling left, I will do this at 25yds.

(as I said the goal is 4 1/2 inch groups at 25yds, with SIG DAK)

Here's another version I will try.

Do this with 11 targets

1) Place a target at 25yds.
2) fire 3 shots
3) measure the 3 shot group
4) fire 2 more shots
5) measure the now 5 shot group
6) fire 5 more shots
7) measure the now 10 shot group

this target is now "done", it has a record of a 3 and 5 and 10 shot group
do this with 11 targets
as before, toss the 5 best and 5 worst results.
this gives results now for 3, 5 and 10 shot groups.

What is the best indicator of accuracy for the "system" (shooter, gun, ammo, phase of the moon etc.)

I would like to see the various "systems" compared from the results of 10 shot groups.

or is there a magic number, 7 or maybe 5, or 10 or more which statistically is the most truthful?
 
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